Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 16:33:04 -0700
Reply-To: Alistair Bell <albell@SHAW.CA>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Alistair Bell <albell@SHAW.CA>
Subject: Re: Oil.. Where's it go?
In-Reply-To: <CAB2RwfiDsmxH1rAqaTzsC12Je48DkZqB80D9m446a35VFnz9Gg@mail.gmail.com>
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Hey Neil,
I had franks papers on my old shaw hosted website. It’s down now as shaw closed that service. Haven’t got around to posting them on my blog.
I put the same windage tray into my I4 westy on Franks recommendation. Worked for me, oil light on hard cornering, sealing, etc. Never had any consumption issues on that engine (1800 8v digifant) for the 15-16 years I ran it. Used Mobil one synthetic back then, all the time.
Alistair
> On Oct 18, 2017, at 3:49 PM, Neil N <musomuso@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> I was searching for something else and stumbled upon an archive post from
> Frank Grunthaner. In part, he wrote about the windage tray. Can't find the
> page now but I'd copied what he wrote. If I recall, Frank was-is running an
> Audi 3A "bubble" block with a diesel pan. Here's his post edited to topic:
>
>
> This is the end of an extensive travel period and the onset of the
> submission
>
> deadline for a new round of NASA space science and Astrobiology research
>
> proposals, so I have been in a more-passive-than-usual lurking mode. A few
>
> quick comments about some I4 conversion questions:
>
>
> First, on the issue of the Windage tray, the unit you want is the VW stock
>
> item for many (not all) of the 2.0 l ABA engines. The part number is
>
> 037-115-220 B and is available from VW dealers, and most VW performance
>
> aftermarket suppliers (Tectonics, etc.). The unit is quality with a capital
> D
>
> (Deutsch). The unit is a stamped tray and feels as if it is made of copper.
> A
>
> previous poster said the tray came with a rubber gasket. Not quite true. The
>
> integral rubber gasket is molded as part of the tray. In the bolt hole
> areas,
>
> metal sleeves are molded into the gasket to control gasket compression when
>
> torqueing the pan bolts. The tray/gasket is designed for repeated use,
>
> requires no goop for sealing and fits perfectly on all ABA and earlier e
>
> ngines ( all 1.8 l, 1.7 l and 1.6 l I-4 blocks ) both gas and diesel.
>
> Installation on the Vanagon I-4 gas or diesel engines requires removal of
> the
>
> oil pickup tube to put the gasket in place.
>
>
> The retail is $89 and I paid about $67 from Camelback. As I recall (it has
>
> been awhile), there was no advantage to buying from Tectonics and I like to
>
> support Camelback (as well as Bus Depot, Vanagain, etc). Check European Car
>
> as several vendors like German ... and Performance ... and Euro ... recently
>
> advertised the tray for as little as $55. Always insist on the part number.
>
> Many aftermarket and dealer parts operatives will insist the plastic oil
>
> pump pickup baffle is a windage tray. If you are quoted a price around $20
>
> to $30, this is what they are quoting you. Remember, this is the America
>
> doomed to continually repeat the Scopes Monkey trial!
>
>
> The windage tray strips the oil film from the crank and helps keep the oil
>
> pickup under oil during the most extreme conditions. It also has a direct
>
> effect on the extent to which the oil is aerated (foamed by the crank
>
> thrashing in the oil). The advantage of the windage tray is directly related
>
> to the oil viscosity and film strength. That is, if you are running molasses
>
> (SAE 50 or eq.) big effect, thin penetrating oil (SAE 0 W) then little
>
> effect.
>
>
> But what effect, you might ask? Well, the traditional value in HP at high
> rpm
>
> for racing engines is given as 3 to 5%. These numbers are for traditional
>
> engines where the static oil level is below the lowest point of the
>
> crankshaft. In the basic line of I-4 VW engines both transverse and
>
> longitudinal (remember, same offset angle) this is also the case. For the
>
> Vanagon mount angle with the diesel oil pan, the oil level (static and full)
>
> is at least 1.2 centimeters higher than in the rest of the I-4 family. There
>
> is a several mm overlap with the crank at the static position. (BTW, I have
>
> the full cross-sections of the I-4 mount in the Vanagon from the original
>
> German technical articles and will send them on to a web site when time
> permi
>
> ts). This means that in the hard-over mount condition, the effect is greater
>
> than the 3-5% standard effect. Now, my measurements:
>
>
> 1. No horsepower difference measurements yet, but coming. By the notoriously
>
> unreliable seat-of-the-pants estimate, the engine spins up noticeably
> faster.
>
>
> 2. No oil pressure light flash on hard braking or cornering. (Yep, had it
>
> before).
>
>
> 3. Oil temperature at 5600 rpm under load, has dropped 12 degrees F.
> Probably
>
> due to lack of air in oil. This is for my standard 5W-40 synthetic oil.
>
>
> 4. Amazing change in oil thrashing around in crankcase. As repeated in the
>
> next section, I put a borescope into the former dipstick hole and have a
> tape
>
> of the crank flying around and the agitation of the oil. I'll try to pull a
>
> few frames to show the key points, but its not the frothing shower it was.
>
>
> 5. Finally, the gasket completely eliminated oil pan leaks.
>
>
> Second, on the issue of the oil dipstick port on all I-4 engines (other than
>
> the Vanagon diesel) which are mounted at the proper (engine cover conserving
>
> design). Caution!!! This is a most important issue although proper
> resolution
>
> is trivial. Remember that for Digifant II and CIS-E engines (I assume CIS is
>
> similar, but haven't really looked at this primitive system) the crankcase
>
> can only be ventilated via the PCV system. An air leak in the crankcase
>
> system will effect fuel economy significantly. If one uses the diesel oil
> pan
>
> and dipstick, this in-the-block dipstick port must be sealed. I cut the tube
>
> off about 10 cm. away from the block surface (Dremel tool). Then used HT PCV
>
> hose and clamp over the tube wall, and a long bolt (long enough to have non
>
> threaded portion - 8 or 10 mm bolt - same OD as dipstick tube) to close it
>
> off. I, on occasion, use this port to test modifications I have made
>
> (measuring crankcase pressure, adding video boroscope to examine engine
> while
>
> running, etc, etc). This clamped PVC hose approach has functioned perfectly.
>
> I have seen other conversions with pinched-off tubes, stuffed rags, bolt
> with
>
> permatex ... argh.
>
>
> One listee commented about complete removal and replacement with the oil
>
> dipstick tube used on the later diesels and turbo-diesels delivered other
>
> than in the USA. This will work if carefully done. In my correspondence with
>
> a German colleague, I was told that the bore in the block was different. So
> I
>
> did not investigate further. I saw one conversion where the owner cobbled up
>
> the dipstick system from the later waterboxers and crafted a Swagelock
>
> transfer between the WB parts and the I-4 dipstick tube. Bad. Had to
>
> calibrate actual oil level to get proper stick length. Dipstick often caught
>
> during insertion. ...
>
>
>
>
> ......
>
>
> Frank Grunthaner
>
> On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> ...... Another often missed possibility with these engines is oil carryover
>> through the crankcase breather or excessive churning-aeration of the oil
>> due to excessive fill level.
>>
>> My memory is a bit lacking but I think you are running that ABA with the
>> 1.6L Diesel pan and mounting system. I believe the ABA has a longer stroke
>> that the 1.6 Diesel so with that pan set up the oil level needs to lowered
>> at least the same amount as the stroke increase.
>>
>> Another problem with the engine at this angle is the crankcase venting
>> system. For the Diesels it was common for the vent to carry oil up to the
>> intake manifold sometimes moving enough to fill the intake manifold enough
>> to create a "runaway". At some point there was a crankcase vent
>> modification to fix this.
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Neil n
>
> Blog: Vanagons, Westfalia, general <http://tubaneil.blogspot.ca>
>
> 1988 Westy Images <https://picasaweb.google.com/musomuso/New1988Westy>
>
> 1981 Westfalia "Jaco" Images, technical <http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/>
>
> Vanagon-Bus VAG Gas Engine Swap Group <http://tinyurl.com/khalbay>
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