Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 15:49:11 -0700
Reply-To: Neil N <musomuso@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Neil N <musomuso@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Oil.. Where's it go?
In-Reply-To: <CY4PR20MB130346F49FA57CB9B4443D03A04D0@CY4PR20MB1303.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
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I was searching for something else and stumbled upon an archive post from
Frank Grunthaner. In part, he wrote about the windage tray. Can't find the
page now but I'd copied what he wrote. If I recall, Frank was-is running an
Audi 3A "bubble" block with a diesel pan. Here's his post edited to topic:
This is the end of an extensive travel period and the onset of the
submission
deadline for a new round of NASA space science and Astrobiology research
proposals, so I have been in a more-passive-than-usual lurking mode. A few
quick comments about some I4 conversion questions:
First, on the issue of the Windage tray, the unit you want is the VW stock
item for many (not all) of the 2.0 l ABA engines. The part number is
037-115-220 B and is available from VW dealers, and most VW performance
aftermarket suppliers (Tectonics, etc.). The unit is quality with a capital
D
(Deutsch). The unit is a stamped tray and feels as if it is made of copper.
A
previous poster said the tray came with a rubber gasket. Not quite true. The
integral rubber gasket is molded as part of the tray. In the bolt hole
areas,
metal sleeves are molded into the gasket to control gasket compression when
torqueing the pan bolts. The tray/gasket is designed for repeated use,
requires no goop for sealing and fits perfectly on all ABA and earlier e
ngines ( all 1.8 l, 1.7 l and 1.6 l I-4 blocks ) both gas and diesel.
Installation on the Vanagon I-4 gas or diesel engines requires removal of
the
oil pickup tube to put the gasket in place.
The retail is $89 and I paid about $67 from Camelback. As I recall (it has
been awhile), there was no advantage to buying from Tectonics and I like to
support Camelback (as well as Bus Depot, Vanagain, etc). Check European Car
as several vendors like German ... and Performance ... and Euro ... recently
advertised the tray for as little as $55. Always insist on the part number.
Many aftermarket and dealer parts operatives will insist the plastic oil
pump pickup baffle is a windage tray. If you are quoted a price around $20
to $30, this is what they are quoting you. Remember, this is the America
doomed to continually repeat the Scopes Monkey trial!
The windage tray strips the oil film from the crank and helps keep the oil
pickup under oil during the most extreme conditions. It also has a direct
effect on the extent to which the oil is aerated (foamed by the crank
thrashing in the oil). The advantage of the windage tray is directly related
to the oil viscosity and film strength. That is, if you are running molasses
(SAE 50 or eq.) big effect, thin penetrating oil (SAE 0 W) then little
effect.
But what effect, you might ask? Well, the traditional value in HP at high
rpm
for racing engines is given as 3 to 5%. These numbers are for traditional
engines where the static oil level is below the lowest point of the
crankshaft. In the basic line of I-4 VW engines both transverse and
longitudinal (remember, same offset angle) this is also the case. For the
Vanagon mount angle with the diesel oil pan, the oil level (static and full)
is at least 1.2 centimeters higher than in the rest of the I-4 family. There
is a several mm overlap with the crank at the static position. (BTW, I have
the full cross-sections of the I-4 mount in the Vanagon from the original
German technical articles and will send them on to a web site when time
permi
ts). This means that in the hard-over mount condition, the effect is greater
than the 3-5% standard effect. Now, my measurements:
1. No horsepower difference measurements yet, but coming. By the notoriously
unreliable seat-of-the-pants estimate, the engine spins up noticeably
faster.
2. No oil pressure light flash on hard braking or cornering. (Yep, had it
before).
3. Oil temperature at 5600 rpm under load, has dropped 12 degrees F.
Probably
due to lack of air in oil. This is for my standard 5W-40 synthetic oil.
4. Amazing change in oil thrashing around in crankcase. As repeated in the
next section, I put a borescope into the former dipstick hole and have a
tape
of the crank flying around and the agitation of the oil. I'll try to pull a
few frames to show the key points, but its not the frothing shower it was.
5. Finally, the gasket completely eliminated oil pan leaks.
Second, on the issue of the oil dipstick port on all I-4 engines (other than
the Vanagon diesel) which are mounted at the proper (engine cover conserving
design). Caution!!! This is a most important issue although proper
resolution
is trivial. Remember that for Digifant II and CIS-E engines (I assume CIS is
similar, but haven't really looked at this primitive system) the crankcase
can only be ventilated via the PCV system. An air leak in the crankcase
system will effect fuel economy significantly. If one uses the diesel oil
pan
and dipstick, this in-the-block dipstick port must be sealed. I cut the tube
off about 10 cm. away from the block surface (Dremel tool). Then used HT PCV
hose and clamp over the tube wall, and a long bolt (long enough to have non
threaded portion - 8 or 10 mm bolt - same OD as dipstick tube) to close it
off. I, on occasion, use this port to test modifications I have made
(measuring crankcase pressure, adding video boroscope to examine engine
while
running, etc, etc). This clamped PVC hose approach has functioned perfectly.
I have seen other conversions with pinched-off tubes, stuffed rags, bolt
with
permatex ... argh.
One listee commented about complete removal and replacement with the oil
dipstick tube used on the later diesels and turbo-diesels delivered other
than in the USA. This will work if carefully done. In my correspondence with
a German colleague, I was told that the bore in the block was different. So
I
did not investigate further. I saw one conversion where the owner cobbled up
the dipstick system from the later waterboxers and crafted a Swagelock
transfer between the WB parts and the I-4 dipstick tube. Bad. Had to
calibrate actual oil level to get proper stick length. Dipstick often caught
during insertion. ...
......
Frank Grunthaner
On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>
wrote:
...... Another often missed possibility with these engines is oil carryover
> through the crankcase breather or excessive churning-aeration of the oil
> due to excessive fill level.
>
> My memory is a bit lacking but I think you are running that ABA with the
> 1.6L Diesel pan and mounting system. I believe the ABA has a longer stroke
> that the 1.6 Diesel so with that pan set up the oil level needs to lowered
> at least the same amount as the stroke increase.
>
> Another problem with the engine at this angle is the crankcase venting
> system. For the Diesels it was common for the vent to carry oil up to the
> intake manifold sometimes moving enough to fill the intake manifold enough
> to create a "runaway". At some point there was a crankcase vent
> modification to fix this.
>
> Dennis
>
>
--
Neil n
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