Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 13:47:52 -0400
Reply-To: Tom Stone <tstone8359@AOL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Tom Stone <tstone8359@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Engine Puzzlememt
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR20MB155115075193FE5312EE3A15A0740@MWHPR20MB1551.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"
For those watching this dilemma, here is the latest. The transmission and
engine were separated with the removal of the torque converter bolts. I
manually spun the engine. It stopped the same places as before.
Apparently, a problem internal with the engine that coincided with the
starter failure.
Going to develop plan B.
Tom Stone, temporarily in Florida.
On June 23, 2018 14:22:12 Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com> wrote:
> How are accessing the torque convert bolts? Normally done with a socket
> through the hole at the top of the engine in front of the intake manifold.
> No way should these be rounding off with a proper socket. They are a
> special bolt, flange head, P.C. 10.9. I always replace them.
>
> Dennis
>
>
> From: Tom Stone <tstone8359@aol.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2018 1:09 PM
> To: Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>
> Subject: RE: Engine Puzzlememt
>
> I removed the bolts from the front mount and the two nuts and bolt holding
> the engine and trans together. However, I cannot get the flex plate/TC
> bolts to come loose. I have rounded one so am trying to be careful.
>
> After reading this note from you, I though a more careful measurement of
> the amount of rotation may be in order. So the distance on the largest
> pully between the chalk marks I made to show maximum rotation in each
> direction is 3.5".
>
> The possibilities you mention sound ominous. The engine was running once
> it was installed. The van was driven a short distance to it's present
> location. It was also started and run a few times here, all without
> incident, until one time, the starter would not turn over. My son asked
> me to come down and work on the van to get it started and to resolve a
> number of other issues with it. After discovering the missing starter bolt
> and broken ear, I thought I was on to something. It seems like a real
> stretch to now entertain the possibility of internal engine problems.
>
> I need to get the flex plate/TC bolts out to get the finger pointed in the
> right direction.
>
> Tom Stone, temporarily in Florida
>
> On June 23, 2018 11:03:15 Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com> wrote:
> That rotation indicates a dropped rod or something in a cylinder such as a
> valve head or other object. Could also be something stuck on the crank gear
> for the camshaft or distributor drive gear. Another possibility is that
> one of the pins on the flex plate, for the never used ignition timing
> sensor is hitting one of the webs on the case.
>
>
> Dennis
>
>
> Sent from
> Mail for Windows 10
>
>
> From: Tom Stone <tstone8359@aol.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2018 10:49:28 AM
> To: Dennis Haynes
> Cc: vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com
> Subject: RE: Engine Puzzlememt
>
>
> The engine turns maybe 270-300 degrees. I can see all three TC bolts and
> checked them for tightness. All were tight. All three bolts that fasten
> the transmission to the engine are tight. No sepration. I took all the
> belts off and the starter out. All spin freely but the engine still will
> not rotate 360 degrees. I checked for obstructions around the pulleys and
> around the TC. Nothing found. What is puzzling is that I expect to hear a
> metallic sound when I turn the engine to the stop points. I hear nothing.
>
> I have gathered my tools and have done a survey of what needs to be undone
> to slide the transmission back. I am starting in a few minutes.
>
> Thanks again for your thoughts. Will let you know how it goes. Going home
> to Ohio Wed. AM so want this this thing running for my son before I leave.
>
> Tom Stone, temporarily in Florida
>
>
> On June 23, 2018 10:22:11 Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A few thoughts. The top bolt on the starter does not just hold the starter.
>> It is actually one of 4 threaded fasteners then hold the engine to the
>> transmission. They are critical. While that one was loose the other three
>> could have also failed causing movement capable of damaging the flex plate.
>> Check the other 3 and check that engine is still tight to the transmission.
>>
>> How far can you turn the engine? 1/4 turn, almost 360? Take the starter
>> back out, will it turn then? Can you turn it enough to actually check all 3
>> of the flex plate to torque converter bolts? How about the rear pulley?
>> Maybe something fell in there.
>> As for moving the transmission your steps below you can almost completely
>> remove. Just removing the flex plate bolts the torque convert will slide
>> forward enough to turn freely from the engine. That will allow you to
>> isolate TC or engine.
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com> On Behalf Of Tom Stone
>> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 6:26 PM
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> Subject: Re: Engine Puzzlememt
>>
>> So since you are more familiar with what is needed to properly diagnose my
>> problem, let me ask you this: If I support the engine, unbolt the TC from
>> the flex plate, unbolt the front trans mount, can I pull the trans away
>> from the engine enough to get a good look/see?
>>
>> Tom Stone, temporarily in Florida
>>
>> On June 22, 2018 6:05:16 PM Stuart MacMillan <stuartmacm@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Of course you will need to support the engine and tranny and remove
>>> the rear mount, but it’s worth a try before disconnecting everything.
>>>
>>>> On Jun 22, 2018, at 2:14 PM, Tom Stone <tstone8359@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your suggestions. I'll take a look at what it will take
>>>> to get the tranny out and back in.
>>>>
>>>> Tom Stone, temporarily in Florida
>>>>
>>>>> On June 22, 2018 4:28:46 PM Stuart MacMillan <stuartmacm@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, if it won’t turn 360 with the starter off it’s time to pull
>>>>> the tranny. It’s something in the bell housing jamming the TC or
>>>>> flex plate, or even something inside the engine. 😕
>>>>>
>>>>> Stuart
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 22, 2018, at 12:29 PM, Tom Stone <tstone8359@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I took the starter out and spun the engine by hand as far as it would go.
>>>>>> Other than some shiny teeth, probably from the starter
>>>>>> misalignment, I didn't see any major damage. The ring gear is
>>>>>> pretty hefty. How can I see the rest of the ring gear and what
>>>>>> would damage that would stop engine rotation look like?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Stone, temporarily in Florida
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On June 22, 2018 14:19:25 Tom Stone <tstone8359@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I took the plugs out and tried to turn the engine by hand in both
>>>>>>> directions. It stopped in the same places. I removed or
>>>>>>> disconnected all of the components connected to the engine
>>>>>>> yesterday. They all spun freely, but the engine would not. I
>>>>>>> will pull the starter off again and inspect the ring gear. Thanks for the
>>>>>>> suggestion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom Stone, temporarily in Florida
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On June 22, 2018 14:00:55 "Stuart MacMillan" <stuartmacm@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Are you using your hands on the pulley (or belt) to turn over the
>>>>>>>> engine, which should be fairly easy with plugs out, or the
>>>>>>>> starter? If you can turn the engine around fully by hand but not
>>>>>>>> with the starter, you have a badly damaged ring gear on the
>>>>>>>> torque converter. Probably happened when the starter mount was broken due
>>>>>>>> to misalignment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stuart
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com> On Behalf
>>>>>>>> Of Dennis Haynes
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 10:35 AM
>>>>>>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Engine Puzzlememt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Short bolt bottom of starter?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Tom Stone<mailto:tstone8359@aol.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 12:22 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Dennis Haynes<mailto:d23haynes57@hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Cc:
> vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com<mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Engine Puzzlememt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks Dennis and Jim. I pulled the spark plugs and there were
>>>>>>>> no fluids inside the cylinders. Manually turned engine to stop
>>>>>>>> point in both directions. It stops in the same places. I
>>>>>>>> checked all three torque converter bolts. All seem tight. Going
>>>>>>>> to remove some exhaust pieces to verify.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since the last change made to the engine was the installation of
>>>>>>>> the starter long bolt, I am looking for some kind of obstruction in that area.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for your always helpful suggestions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tom Stone, temporarily in Florida.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On June 21, 2018 19:08:09 Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Look for a loose torque converter bolt. One of the three between
>>>>>>>> converter and flex plate or something fell in there. Also, if
>>>>>>>> multiple tries to crank engine the cylinders could be locked up
>>>>>>>> with gasoline. Remove the spark plugs and check.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dennis
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Tom Stone<mailto:tstone8359@AOL.COM>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 6:01 PM
>>>>>>>> To:
> vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM<mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Engine Puzzlememt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Working on my son's '91 Westy Automatic. New engine from the guy
>>>>>>>> that took over Boston Bob's business. It was installed and
>>>>>>>> running. The starter had been installed with only the short bolt
>>>>>>>> which had loosened. The starter lost ground and would only work
>>>>>>>> intermittently. Then the bolt ear broke. I got a new starter and
>>>>>>>> the long bolt and installed it with both bolts. Now the engine
>>>>>>>> will only rotate to a certain point and stop. I can manually turn
>>>>>>>> the engine backwards and it stops turning at just before the stop
>>>>>>>> point. I took the starter off and ran it. I took the belts off the P/S
>>>>>>>> pump, the alternator and the water pump (A/C not connected) and they all
>>>>>>>> turn freely.
>>>>>>>> I took the valve covers off and without being able to rotate the
>>>>>>>> engine, visually checked for a valve stem in each keeper. I am at
>>>>>>>> a loss for what to look at next and what might have happened.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any ideas?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tom Stone, temporarily in FL where it is hot!
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