Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 14:41:46 -0500
Reply-To: Tom Hargrave <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Tom Hargrave <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET>
Subject: Re: found some freon 12 should I recharge old AC
In-Reply-To: <CACvdLxNx=tEr7uyL=deJQ8KOGFJ48LtwOnLOBbVK4r2sm=W8-A@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I understand. All of the Freon oil is pumped passed the O-rings just as it's pumped through the hoses. But the front seal of a lot of compressors are fed with a small oil bleed, enough to maintain an oil film between the shaft and bushing.
Depending on the size of your leak you may or may not see any oil dripping from behind your clutch pulley. From experience, the very small leaks won't or at least won't leak enough oil to notice.
To find small leaks you need an oil charge with UV dye and a UV light. If I'm right you'll see the UV dye on the inside / back of your AC pulley and if I'm not the UV dye will lead you to your problem.
Thanks, Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com – Electric Brewery Info
www.towercooler.com – Beer Tower Cooler
http://goo.gl/niRzVw - My Amazon Store
www.brew-control.com – Electric Brewery Marketing and Direct Sales
http://www.hackpilot.com/roadkill/ - A little twisted humor
-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On Behalf Of David McNeely
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 12:39 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: found some freon 12 should I recharge old AC
Tom, as I stated in the first post I made, the techs who have worked on my AC put dye in the refrigerant. I saw the stains where an o-ring leaked.
mcneely
On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 10:23 AM Tom Hargrave <thargrav@hiwaay.net> wrote:
> Not all refrigerant oil contains dye.
>
> And Freon bleeding past the compressor front seal won't carry much oil
> unless it becomes a major leak. There's only a small oil film at the seal.
>
> It's not like a hose leak where oil being pumped around along with the
> Freon blows out with the Freon.
>
> Thanks, Tom Hargrave
> www.kegkits.com – Electric Brewery Info www.towercooler.com – Beer
> Tower Cooler http://goo.gl/niRzVw - My Amazon Store
> www.brew-control.com – Electric Brewery Marketing and Direct Sales
> http://www.hackpilot.com/roadkill/ - A little twisted humor
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On
> Behalf Of David McNeely
> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 11:29 AM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: found some freon 12 should I recharge old AC
>
> Wouldn't the dye in the refrigerant reveal that leak, Tom?
>
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 10:58 PM Tom Hargrave <thargrav@hiwaay.net> wrote:
>
> > Could be the compressor front seal. The seal is just an oil film
> > between very close fitting parts.
> >
> > Thanks, Tom Hargrave
> > www.kegkits.com – Electric Brewery Info www.towercooler.com – Beer
> > Tower Cooler http://goo.gl/niRzVw - My Amazon Store
> > www.brew-control.com – Electric Brewery Marketing and Direct Sales
> > http://www.hackpilot.com/roadkill/ - A little twisted humor
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On
> > Behalf Of Stephen Grisanti
> > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:19 PM
> > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > Subject: Re: found some freon 12 should I recharge old AC
> >
> > A Samba thread on R134a conversion from a few years ago involved
> > replacing all the hoses. He removed them and had a shop put the
> > stock ends on new barrier hose, as I recall, and I think he reported
> > it cost about
> > $200 at the time.
> > I can never find the link when I want to but it involved an '87
> > Westy like mine. Stephen
> > On Monday, April 13, 2020, 10:57:02 PM EDT, David McNeely <
> > davmcneely40@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Tom, I don't know if your response was meant for me. I converted
> > to R134a long ago. Cools great when it gets a new charge, but leaks
> > down over half the summer, and no one can find the leak. So, I
> > thought -- based on Denis's comment to the original poster, "Aha,
> > might be hoses." mcneely
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 6:56 PM Tom Hargrave <thargrav@hiwaay.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > > If you are considering swapping to R134a, by now the old hoses
> > > should not be an issue because they have been fully saturated with
> > > refrigerant oil and won't leak.
> > >
> > > But like someone else mentioned the tough part will be to find
> > > someone willing to convert your system. Most AC shops dumped or
> > > upgraded their
> > > R12 recovery systems long ago, when the R12 to R134 conversion
> > > business finally went away.
> > >
> > > You will have three issues with a conversion.
> > >
> > > 1. A conversion drops about 20% of the system's cooling capacity.
> > > 2. The expansion valve is the wrong size and should be replaced.
> > > 3. The compressor front seal will leak R134a because its molecule
> > > size is smaller than R12.
> > >
> > > In other words, to do it right you have to replace the compressor,
> > > receiver dryer and expansion valve and you still lose about 20% of
> > > the system's capacity.
> > >
> > > You are better off testing for pressure. If your system still
> > > retains any pressure by now, have it serviced and drive it as is.
> > >
> > > Thanks, Tom Hargrave
> > > www.kegkits.com – Electric Brewery Info www.towercooler.com – Beer
> > > Tower Cooler http://goo.gl/niRzVw - My Amazon Store
> > > www.brew-control.com – Electric Brewery Marketing and Direct Sales
> > > http://www.hackpilot.com/roadkill/ - A little twisted humor
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On
> > > Behalf Of David McNeely
> > > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 3:21 PM
> > > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > > Subject: Re: found some freon 12 should I recharge old AC
> > >
> > > Dennis, you said that the original poster's "... hoses are also
> > > old and not designed for R134a." Some years ago, I had my AC
> > > system
> > > (1991 VW Vanagon GL Campmobile) converted to R134a. Based on
> > > extensive investigation before having the conversion done, I
> > > believe everything except hoses was done. The system has never
> > > held refrigerant well since. It will cool beautifully after a
> > > fill, then drop off in effectiveness until it is kaput about half
> > > summer through. It has had dye added to the refrigerant, and
> > > searched for leaks, with none evident. Could the old hoses
> > > (originals) be the
> problem?
> > >
> > > Thank you, mcneely
> > >
> > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 12:54 PM Dennis Haynes
> > > <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > FWIW since you are asking this question you probably should not
> > > > be servicing the AC system without some help. Since the system
> > > > has been neglected it is likely to be contaminated with moisture
> > > > and the oil probably also needs to be serviced. The proper
> > > > procedure would be to test for pressure and have anything inside
> > > > it recovered. Good luck finding a shop with R12 recovery equipment.
> > > > Sell the cans. You will need about 1,300 grams to fill an empty
> system. AC systems are magic.
> > > > Even under pressure they somehow manage to get moisture inside.
> > > > Most likely small leaks on the suction side including the
> > > > compressor shaft
> > > seal.
> > > >
> > > > If the system was really empty for a long time then the
> > > > receiver/dryer should be replaced and it would be a good idea to
> > > > change the compressor oil and plan to convert to R134a or one of
> > > > the other "magic" refrigerants out there.
> > > >
> > > > Then you pressurize the system with nitrogen and ensure it can
> > > > hold pressure, at least overnight.
> > > > Then you need to evacuate the system. The longer the better. You
> > > > want to boil off all moisture and other contaminants in the system.
> > > > A small amount of moisture can play all sorts of havoc. The
> > > > nastiest is ice crystals blocking the expansion valve and
> > > > causing the compressor to dead head. The
> > > > 85 does not have much in the way of safeties and even better
> > > > systems this will often result in blown compressors, hoses,
> > > > switches
> etc.
> > > > Then charge, by weight. They say R134a should be 80-85% of the
> > > > fill for R12. I find the Vanagon really works best 1,300-1,400 grams.
> > > > Don't forget the add the required amount of compressor oil. If
> > > > still some mineral oil in there use Ester. If you really got the
> > > > system cleaned you can use the preferred PAG oil for R134.
> > > >
> > > > The earlier AC systems are a bit disappointing especially the
> campers.
> > > > Upgrading the condenser to one of the parallel flow universal
> > > > ones help a lot. They also allow for better airflow helping both
> > > > the AC and
> > > radiator.
> > > > Your hoses are also old and not designed for R134a. Typically
> > > > though the common leak points are the condenser, the compressor
> > > > and the receiver dryer.
> > > >
> > > > Dennis
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
> > > > Behalf Of Spencer Allen
> > > > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 10:36 AM
> > > > To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > > > Subject: found some freon 12 should I recharge old AC
> > > >
> > > > Found two 1LB cans of R12 in my late uncles garage. My 85 Westys
> > > > AC worked when I bought it 20 years ago but only used it a
> > > > couple of times at first and then not at all. It's probably been
> > > > 15 years since I last used it and it blew cold during that time.
> > > > Since then on the occasions when I turn it on just to run it no
> > > > cold air comes out. I hear this old stuff is really expensive so
> > > > since I have these
> > > > (free) cans sitting here I'm tempted to hook up my hoses and
> > > > recharge
> > system.
> > > > Any thoughts or input on this idea?Spencer85Westy
> > > >
> > > -----
> > > No virus found in this message.
> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > Version: 2016.0.7924 / Virus Database: 4793/15886 - Release Date:
> > > 08/14/18 Internal Virus Database is out of date.
> > >
> > >
> > -----
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 2016.0.7924 / Virus Database: 4793/15886 - Release Date:
> > 08/14/18 Internal Virus Database is out of date.
> >
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2016.0.7924 / Virus Database: 4793/15886 - Release Date:
> 08/14/18 Internal Virus Database is out of date.
>
>
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7924 / Virus Database: 4793/15886 - Release Date: 08/14/18 Internal Virus Database is out of date.
