Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 08:01:40 -0700
Reply-To: Bruce Todd <beeceetee@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Bruce Todd <beeceetee@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Oil Temp Sender and Gauge Engine lugging and other thoughts.
In-Reply-To: <CY4PR0801MB37312B5B012E20196D0BCD1BA0049@CY4PR0801MB3731.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
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Thanks Dennis, I am glad we had this conversation - as I would have been
lugging the motor per your explanation thinking I was giving the motor a
break by not pushing it into the higher rpm range by dropping to third but
instead staying in that balance between the rpms not gaining or losing any
rpm when climbing the bridge in 4th the other day.
In terms of engine health and oil temp - what would you say is better to
maintain on flat highway for a duration in 4th ....between 3200 to 3600 rpm
or between 3800 to 4200?
BT
On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 6:19 AM Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Many folks think of engine lugging as being that condition where at low
> RPM and under some load you hear-feel that bucking and jerking that gets
> your attention. For me lugging is the condition where an increase in
> throttle does not result in an increase in speed. This is the point where
> the engine is overloaded.
>
>
>
> The Waterboxer following the heritage going all the way back to the early
> beetle engines is a large bore, short stroke engine designed to operate at
> some speed, generating power with RPM more than torque. It is not a mistake
> or accident that in the Vanagon it is geared to let it spin to move along
> at highway speeds. Except for the mistake of insufficient oil cooling at
> higher speeds for extended periods, when power is required 3,800 to
> 4,200-4,400 rpm is the sweet spot where these engines like to work. If
> during a hill climb you are near full throttle and the RPM is dropping you
> are straining the engine and not doing is any favors. Those high lift
> rockers offer their benefits at higher RPM and likely downshifting would
> allow you to accelerate or maintain speed at partial throttle which for a
> number of reasons is really better for the engine.
>
>
>
> To give some perspective think of a bicycle. Think of the pistons as you
> feet on the pedals and the gearing as the chain sprocket choices. When
> pedaling up a hill would you stay in your highest ratio and push as hard as
> you can even lifting off the seat or gear down to more easily pedal up the
> hill even if going slower.
>
>
>
> Dennis
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Bruce Todd <beeceetee@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 25, 2021 7:16 PM
> *To:* Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>
> *Cc:* vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> *Subject:* Oil Temp Sender and Gauge
>
>
>
> Hi Dennis - There was no lugging but that also depends ones definition of
> lugging. During my travels I was moving at around 3800 rpm prior to
> climbing the bridge when the van slowly decreased eventually to a steady
> 3000 in 4th until I reached the point where the rpm began to increase
> again. I think oil pressure would have dropped from about 38 psi to about
> 29 or so - no idea of oil temp as the gauge wasn’t working at the time.
> Currently I seem to get around 41 psi at 4000 rpm with everything warm and
> running - also I am running with conventional 20W50.
>
>
>
> My recollection of previous climbs would be that the rpm would drop below
> 3000 to perhaps 2500 which made me shift to third and hold it steady at
> about 3500 rpm until I reached the top of the bridge. Of course there is
> no data to review as I am working with memories.
>
>
>
> Even on the flat freeway it seemed to me I had more pedal left to go a
> little bit faster - nothing earth shattering but just a bit more power.
> Anyway it could be I had a pretty empty van yesterday and often when I
> travel over that bridge I have passengers and camping gear on board.
>
>
>
> I will start to log some notes on performance over the next few months.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, June 25, 2021, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Bruce,
> It could be of value to some to report on oil temperature and pressure at
> various conditions. For that bridge climb, were you at or near full
> throttle to maintain whatever speed you were traveling at? If the rocker
> and injector upgrade made enough of a difference to allow you not downshift
> that may become the death kneel of that engine. You are much better off at
> part throttle in a lower gear than lugging it. In addition to the increased
> NOx emissions during the lugging pre-ignition can occur and then comes the
> burned valves and melted pistons.
>
> Seriously the Waterboxer is short stroke engine best suited to spinning
> fast at lower stress.
>
> Dennis
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com> On Behalf Of Eric
> Caron
> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2021 12:56 PM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: Oil Temp Sender and Gauge
>
> Hi Bruce,
>
> That is impressive work on your part. So nice to hear your van is happy!
>
> Keep the updates coming. The engine upgrade is very interesting.
>
> Best.
>
> Eric Caron
> 85 GL Auto
> GW Dennis built 2.3
>
>
>
> > On Jun 25, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Bruce Todd <beeceetee@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> >
> > Ok - so with some guidance from Dennis - I can update the list by
> > stating the digital oil temp gauge was pooched. The good news is it
> > comes with a lifetime warranty. The bad news is that the buyer paid
> > postage will cost about the same as a new gauge when sending it to
> > Ohio. Oh well - I settled on a VDO analog gauge for about the same
> > price I bought the digital one for from Intellitronix. When I removed
> > the VDO gauge from the packaging I could tell I had a better
> > instrument - perhaps the weight - just felt and looked well put
> > together. Plunked it into the gauge cluster after wiring it to all the
> leads - and voila I now have readings!
> >
> > I bought the VDO gauge at Cal Imports and it being located about 30 km
> > from me - I took the van on a good highway run on a relatively warm
> > day. I have to marvel again, by replacing the rockers and fuel
> > injectors with the Mansispeed products I am grinning from ear to ear -
> > noticing a subtle power increase. Not requiring to change gears as
> > quickly when climbing inclines and just having a little more power at
> > my fingertips when driving highway speeds. I noticed this on both
> > ends of the Alex Fraser bridge where there are times I have to pop the
> > van into third - but not yesterday - steady
> > 3000 rpm in 4th and keeping up with the flow of traffic all the way.
> >
> > The cooling system is working well - I had it rechecked about 2 weeks
> > ago and everything is good - just the temp gauge is still reading a
> > little higher than what I am used to. Could be the new aluminum
> > t-stat housing - not sure but the fan comes on when it should and
> > things stayed steady yesterday - needle didn't budge much when idling in
> traffic.
> >
> > Another small victory was that the oil dripping from the pressure hose
> > fittings for relocating the oil pressure switch has stopped. Thanks
> > Dennis for the tip on using a thread sealer - things are very dry
> > again under the butt of the van and on top of the case where oil was
> > also seeping from the oil pressure sender I had installed.
> >
> > OK - the kinks seem to finally be worked out and summer is here - so
> > hopefully (knock on wood or pat the dash 5 times), I will have few
> > issues to contend with and report during vacation season. One last
> > project is to set up and try out the rear attaching add a room tent I
> > picked up last fall from Bus Depot.
> >
> > Thanks for all the tips everyone.
> >
> > BT
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 8:53 AM Bruce Todd <beeceetee@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> So - I am having some issues getting an aftermarket digital oil temp
> >> gauge to work.
> >>
> >> The sender connects to a threaded adaptor that replaces the oil
> >> relief plug - which I imagine many of you folks likely have in place
> >> on your beloved vans. First question - if this is your set up, have
> >> you had to ground the sender since the bottom of the block is
> >> aluminum? When I jumper a ground to the sender the gauge reads -18C
> >> which equates to 0 Fahrenheit...(I opted for Celcius over
> >> Fahrenheit). Without the jumper to the ground, the gauge reads full
> >> scale - 181C or 300 F. Note - This is just with the ignition on
> without any temp being generated from the motor.
> >>
> >> When I run the motor with the sender jumped to ground and the sender
> >> wire attached to the gauge the gauge just stays on -18C and there is
> >> no fluctuation - so somewhere in this equation the resistance isn't
> >> dropping as the oil temp rises....which is how I believe things work
> >> with temp gauges.
> >>
> >> If I drive the van without the sender grounded - the gauge at full
> >> scale
> >> (181C) begins to slowly decrease as the motor warms up - but
> >> continues to drop until it reaches -18C and then stays there - it
> >> doesn't set on a temperature.
> >>
> >> This gauge is from Intellitronix (M9108) and came with a sender. I
> >> had originally installed a GW sender but then exchanged that earlier
> >> this week thinking it might be the issue as it may not be matched
> >> correctly with the gauge.
> >>
> >> When looking at GW (as a resource) they don't seem to mention
> >> grounding the sender - nor did the instructions I received for the
> >> gauge and sender - however I imagine they typically sell these units
> >> to vehicles that don't have an aluminum cases and the sender grounds
> directly to the motor.
> >>
> >> Any thoughts appreciated as I am running out of ideas here.
> >>
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >>
>
>
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