Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 10:47:31 -0700
Reply-To: David McNeely <davmcneely40@GMAIL.COM>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: David McNeely <davmcneely40@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Any advise on timing of an oil change before or after winter
storage
In-Reply-To: <CA+r=JhpUicXyDpaXxZRPfGxaBroncoW_7LzAVo5aEfdJ_Oq-0A@mail.gmail.com>
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You are of course, correct Larry. My explanation was intended to be
simplistic, and to relate to substances commonly known as acids and bases.
The definitions you mention do of course have relevance to the ability of
one substance to interact with another, and including the ability to
corrode metals. IIRC, those definitions were originally based on the
proton donor and electron donor behavior of water (hydrogen ion is after
all proton), but were broadened to include non-aquaeous chemistry. Those
behaviors are more broadly termed oxidation and reduction.
Thanks for the enhancement!
mcneely
On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 7:19 AM Larry Alofs <lalofs@gmail.com> wrote:
> It may be enlightening to simply google the term"non-aqueous acid".
> Although the oldest and best known definitions of acids and bases are
> based on water solutions and the pH scale, there are other broader
> approaches such as the Bronsted-Lowry (proton donors and acceptors) and the
> Lewis (electron-pair acceptors and donors). These more inclusive theories
> can apply to acidic oils and reactions between gases, etc.
> "acidic oil" as a search topic produces some information about skin care
> products, but also about the "acid number" of crude oil and oil products.
>
> A leak between the combustion system and the oil system is what we used to
> call blow-by; piston rings are not perfect. Of course modern emissions
> controls are supposed to catch all that. :-)
>
> Larry A.
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 7:57 PM David McNeely <davmcneely40@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Ha, Ha. Sitting in the shop for a long time.
>>
>> So far as acidic oil, hmmm..... . I do have an undergrad degree in
>> chemistry and biology, plus a doctorate in ecology with some grad level
>> chemistry courses.
>>
>> Most of you probably know that acidity and basicity are (in simplistic
>> terms) relating to the hydrogen ion concentration of a water solution.
>> They are quantified as pH (original term, power of hydrogen). Water
>> molecules dissociate, and the relative concentration of hydrogen ion and
>> hydroxide ion (H+ and OH-) constitute acidity and basicity (again,
>> simplistic terms). The two concentrations are related. When one is high
>> the other is low, and vice versa, except in pure water both are equal.
>> So,
>> knowing one, one knows the other, and pH is satisfactory for expressing
>> either acidity or basicity. It is defined as the -log (base 10) of the
>> hydrogen ion concentration. In pure water, the dissociation of the water
>> molecules yields a pH of 7.00..................., because 1x10 to the -1
>> molecules are dissociated. Acid solutions have a pH less than 7 (the
>> stronger or more concentrated, the lower the pH), basic solutions have a
>> pH
>> greater than 7 (again, stronger or more concentrated, the higher the pH).
>> Keep in mind, these are water solutions, not oil.
>>
>> All this is a long way of saying that to describe a substance other than
>> water or a solution of something in water as acidic or basic is chemical
>> non-sense. Oil simply cannot be acidic, and if one placed a pH probe in
>> oil, the probe would have nothing to measure. If water is present in the
>> oil system of a vehicle, it should seek the lowest point in the system,
>> and
>> not be dissolved into the oil, since the two things are not soluble one in
>> the other. Water IS a product of combustion, but should not contaminate
>> the oil system unless there is leak of some kind between the combustion
>> system and the oil system. I believe that lowest point should be the
>> sump,
>> or oil pan.
>>
>> That said, if water from the cooling system contaminates the oil system,
>> an
>> emulsion (not a solution) can form, and the coolant can take on a
>> mayonnaise like consistency. I have seen this, though not in a modern
>> vehicle, rather way back in the fifties. I believe it was the result of a
>> head gasket leak. However, I have not seen the oil take on this quality.
>> Others may have.
>>
>> If this bit of pedantic comment is helpful to anyone, good. If not,
>> ignore
>> it. Exactly what relevance it might have to long term storage of a
>> vehicle, I do not know.
>>
>> mcneely
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2021 at 1:39 PM OlRivrRat <OlRivrRat@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> > JF,, Why were You sitting in a shop for many years ~~
>> >
>> > > On 8 Oct , 2021, at 6:06 PM, Jim. Felder <jim.felder@GMAIL.COM>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I don't know. i've opened up engines after sitting in a shop for many
>> > many
>> > > years and have never seen water (or any other) contamination at least
>> > that
>> > > was visible. My Jettas were "never" (my quotes because no VW ever held
>> > oil
>> > > for that long) supposed to undergo transmission oil or transmission
>> > fluid
>> > > changes.
>> > >
>> > > The reason I would change oil in an engine is if I did not know what I
>> > was
>> > > working with, no matter what the circumstances.
>> > >
>> > > Does anyone know for sure about oil being hygroscopic? About it
>> turning
>> > > acidic? And I am talking about for certain, as in information from a
>> > > chemist.
>> > >
>> > > Jim
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 11:31 AM Dan N <dn92610@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> I agree.. some people change the oil twice... once before storage and
>> > once
>> > >> after storage... Car collectors do it on a strict time schedule
>> because
>> > of
>> > >> the contamination factors... storage or not driving it or not.
>> > >>
>> > >> On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 9:22 AM Cary Chiang <ccchiang1@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> I've read a few articles about how professionals and car collectors
>> > >>> prepare vehicles for long term storage, and their rule was to always
>> > >>> replace fuel and oil with fresh/clean fluids before storage. I
>> believe
>> > >> they
>> > >>> stated that the contaminants in used oil, combined with the moisture
>> > from
>> > >>> combustion and from the humidity that Dan mentioned, causes the oil
>> to
>> > >>> become slightly acidic. No need to leave that sitting in your
>> engine
>> > all
>> > >>> winter!
>> > >>> Cary
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On Fri, Oct 8, 2021, 10:30 AM Dan N <dn92610@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> I'd think wait till the Spring and change oil before you resume the
>> > >>>> driving. Fresh oil sitting in the engine during the winter months
>> will
>> > >>>> collect moisture due to humidity.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 7:22 AM Jack R <jack007@comcast.net> wrote:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> Any advise on timing of an oil change before or after winter
>> storage?
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Does it make any difference as to when I do my oil change on my
>> 2.1L
>> > >>>> Westy?
>> > >>>>> I'm due for one based on time/mileage, but wondered if I should
>> wait
>> > >>>> until
>> > >>>>> Spring when I start driving again or should it be completed
>> before I
>> > >>>> store
>> > >>>>> it in my insulated garage for the winter?
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Thanks!!
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Jack R.
>> > >>>>> 84 Westy, with 2.1L from 91 syncro
>> > >>>>> N. of Detroit
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> >
>>
>
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