Date: Tue, 31 May 2022 12:16:16 -0400
Reply-To: Eric Caron <ericcaron96@COMCAST.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Eric Caron <ericcaron96@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: 84 running issue solved?
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR19MB2875B661681BD2965C5BD9D1BADC9@DM6PR19MB2875.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi David,
Denis installed this on my 85 so He gathered needed 2.1 needed parts for the upgrade.
I’d love to know a list of what 2.1 parts are needed as I would gather them as they come available from friends parting out vans and cleaning out garages. If I know what to get I’ll be able to prepare for a possible transition.
So, looking forward to the Denis response.
Eric Caron
> On May 31, 2022, at 12:05 PM, David Boan <dboan@OUTLOOK.COM> wrote:
>
> Denis
>
> I am unclear about the GW EFI, whether it is for '86 and up or would also be for an '85. The website says '86, but I also read somewhere it would replace both the digijet and digifan. My van is running fine, so I am not planning to fix something that is not broken, but as parts become unavailable I may have to go that route in the future. Have you installed this on a 1.9?
>
> Dave B
> Boise
> ________________________________
> From: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com> on behalf of Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2022 9:55 AM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Subject: Re: 84 running issue solved?
>
> Eric,
> The GoWesty replacement throttle body is a repair and upgrade part. Bearings, seals, and larger throttle opening. The 2.1 also has a larger opening than the 1.9. It is also $300. The is a 10% down payment toward the GoWesty EFI. The GoWesty EFI system installed in your 85 included their throttle body as that system uses an actual throttle position sensor, not just the opened-closed throttle switch.
>
> Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com> On Behalf Of Eric Caron
> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2022 11:37 AM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: 84 running issue solved?
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> Please tell me more about the GW throttle body.
>
> What differences did you notice?
>
> Is it a straight forward install?
>
> Do you use the same boot for example?
>
> Mine is now functioning much better but this may be on my long term improvement list.
> I want to get the van dialed in, hopefully with some help from Denis at West River Westies. Then drive it for awhile to see what needs to be done for long term health.
>
> I believe I have a GW Throttle body on my 85 Automatic 2.3 but am only now more deeply becoming familiar with these parts.
>
> Eric Caron
>
>
>
>> On May 31, 2022, at 10:17 AM, David Boan <dboan@OUTLOOK.COM> wrote:
>>
>> Thank you for these Eric. I am going to copy and save them. I also have a 1.9 ignition on a GW 2.3. Last year I dealt with stalling issues and eventually found that the throttle switch was worn out. I replaced the throttle body with the GW product and not only solved the stalling but also had a great overall improvement in performance.
>>
>> Dave B
>> Boise
>> ________________________________
>> From: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com> on behalf of Eric Caron <ericcaron96@COMCAST.NET>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2022 8:14 AM
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>> Subject: Re: 84 running issue solved?
>>
>> Oops,
>>
>> Here are the Denis tips I forgot to paste into the earlier response.
>>
>>
>> Diagnosis tips
>>
>> the Digi-Jet is still a fairly simple system and with very few exceptions most running problems end up being outside the fault of the FI system.
>>
>> For the high idle, this is always a result of some combination of incorrect basic settings, excess or unmetered air getting into the intake.
>>
>> Start with checking that the throttle body is properly adjusted. It needs to fully close without the palte sticking in the bore. There is a stop screw and lock nut for this adjustment. This is extremely critical as your distributor has both vacuum advance and retard. The plate needs to close properly to close off the advance port in order for the retard to work properly. The distributor should also be tested that the vacuum operated and mechanical advance parts are working. If setting timing at idle confirmation is needed that the vacuum retard is in fact fully retarded. Warm, engine, disconnect O2 sensor and use the sensor and meter to fine tune AFM. Make sure warm up regulator is closing, uses a heater and engine case temp to close. Set timing 5 ATDC, mixture to ~.5 volt on O2 Sensor and base idle speed 850-950 rpm.
>>
>> For the off isle stumble make sure that the closed throttle switch opens immediately as throttle is opened. If not you go into injector cut off at ~1350 rpm. Then after that O2 sensor is ignored for a number crankshaft revolutions. Operation will be wacky.
>>
>> Since this engine has some miles on it it would be a good idea for a compression and leak down test. As this combination may also be susceptible to detonation it is also a good idea to put a camera inside the cylinders and look for piston damage. Carbon in the intake ports and back of the intake valves can also cause running problems.
>>
>>
>> For the Waterboxer, getting a smooth, nice sounding idle has some challenges even when all is working well. The intake track is not well balanced at low speeds, ignition timing is retarded, and the lean mixture is further aggravated by cylinder, injector, and air flow imbalances that make a "lean misfire" a normal condition.
>>
>> For the diagnostics many would like to get an easy fix. Remote diagnoses really gets back to just guesses and tossing parts. One my chuckles is the frequent suggestion of checking the throttle switch. While it is there for a number of purposes, it does little to effect steady state, closed throttle idle. If it fails closed, it will cause an off ldle stumble, surges, etc. At speed a closed switch will effect mixture causing full throttle enrichment when that is not needed. As for actual idle effect, at closed throttle, if the enigne is over run such as going down a hill or down shifting to slow the vehicle down at some RPM the fuel is cut off. As the engine slows down and fuel supply is restored, (injectors turned on) the O2 sensor is bypassed for a short time. This is where the engine basic settings need to be spot on to avoid idle surges or stall outs.
>>
>> Next thing to check is engine condition, fuel and air delivery, and ignition. Fuel delivery includes the injectors having good spray patterns and being balanced. Air delivery includes not having any vacuum leaks, or un metered sir flow. As the Waterboxer does not use a PCV valve or other metered crank case ventilation metering vacuum leaks include bad valve cover gaskets, defective pistons, rings, and even valves and guides. Bad intake valves and worn guides are fairly common.
>>
>> As for mixture control the O2 sensor actually provides a some diagnostic capabilities. Using a good multimeter, the output can be measured and proper operation can be easily confirmed. A meter with a bar graph display will update much faster than just the number display. Going back to understanding the process, the O2 sensor is not there to maintain an ideal mixture. The goal is to switch from rich to lean and back quickly so the the 3 way catalyst and support HC and CO reduction (lean) and NOx reduction (rich) simultaneously. So with the voltmeter you want to see the sensor output contantly going above and below ~.5 volt.
>>
>> Often disconnecting the O2 sensor wil help the idle leading one to believe that the sensor is defective. The next step here is determining if the sensor is bad and causing the mixture to go rich. For Digifant the design is to keep going rich until the signal is sensed and if not, going rich enough to make the vehicle undriveable, forcing a repair. For digijet this failure often goes unnoticed expect maybe for bad fuel economy or an emissions inspection failure.
>>
>> Almost never does a bad sensor cause the system to go too lean. If with the sensor connected the idle goes bad and the sensor is showing a voltage reaction, you then need to look at the fuel and air delivery issues mentioned earlier. A single bad leaky injector will dump fuel in that one cylinder and the O2 sensor will drive tings lean and then the 3 other cylinders will fail to fire. There goes the idle. Excess oil blow by or suck through the valve guides can also cause the O2 sensor to overly lean out the mixture. The O2 sensor works by generating a voltage based on the difference of O2 in exhaust compared to the outside air. As such any contamination such as oil or coolant that doesn't belong is a problem.
>>
>> Hopefully some of this is helpful.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On May 31, 2022, at 10:12 AM, Eric Caron <ericcaron96@COMCAST.NET> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Jaime
>>>
>>> I’m pasting in the great tips I recently used from Denis to start improving my running issues.
>>>
>>> This was for a 1.9 ignition on a 2.3 GW motor.
>>>
>>> I expect much of the info, advice, and tips are the same.
>>>
>>> In my case the first step lead to finding not only a dirty throttle body but one that was not sealed correctly as it was physically loose. This was not at first obvious.
>>>
>>> I also notice now that the cleaning has also returned strength to the main spring.
>>>
>>> I’m looking forward to having assistence to continue working down the Dennis list.
>>>
>>> With luck it will continue to run better and by the time Dennis sees it it will be ready for fine tuning and the more hidden problems that he is great about finding.
>>>
>>> Eric Caron
>>> 84 and 85 Westfalias.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 30, 2022, at 11:31 AM, <jforero@sbcglobal.net> <jforero@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Good morning, I have an issue with my tin top that I think o folks in this thread might be able to help me with. My 91 tin top has started to rock back and forth in second, third or 4th gear as I roll towards a stop and rpms at 1K or lower. It will also rock back and forth on accelerating from a slow roll when the rocking has happened. As soon as I speed up, van will stop rocking back and forth. Anyone with any ideas of what may be the problem?
>>>>
>>>> ___________________
>>>> Jaime Forero
>>>> Siempre Adelante!!!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com> On Behalf Of Eric Caron
>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2022 6:50 PM
>>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>>> Subject: Re: 84 running issue solved?
>>>>
>>>> Hi Jamie,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks! We have a lot more to do to make the van road worthy and so appreciate tips and support.
>>>> We were shocked at the big improvement the first step made. I think there are many more important checks and servicing needed but we are following the list tips and making good progress.
>>>>
>>>> At least now I feel like it can be driven to West River Westies!
>>>> Sorry to see Bus Fusion didn’t work out for you.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Eric Caron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On May 29, 2022, at 5:45 PM, Jamie Auch <jamie@kookymathteacher.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Great to hear Eric!
>>>>>
>>>>> My best,
>>>>> Jamie
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 29, 2022, at 4:24 PM, Eric Caron <ericcaron96@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Folks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> During a Memorial weekend gathering there were several VW bus folks at my home.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My good friend Art came early so we could look at the 84. It has had idle and running issues since about 2021. It looks like the shop that most recently was charged with fixing the problem didn’t do much of the basic checking as described by Dennis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Art asked me how I wanted to start and I showed him the email from Dennis listing his approach.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The first thing was to inspect the Throttle body completely. So I wanted to start here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We started to remove it and Art noticed it was very loose. Then we got it off and it was very very dirty.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We cleaned it completely. We cleaned out all the parts and vacuum connections. We made sure all was working smoothly again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We then tried to install using some gasket maker to help out the old gasket. And… The throttle cable Brook off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We quick went to the old VW parts man about 30 minutes away and got a new throttle cable, and a new intake boot for good measure. And what the heck, a replacement rear view mirror was also available. And, my rear tail light had some cracks so Gott lucky and found a perfect used VW one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Headed home and got the cable put back in, got the throttle body on and started the bus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It still sounded terrible. So we stood around a bit wondering what to do next and turned it off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We then plugged in the 1.9 shoe box ECU and sure enough it worked and was showing all kinds of info. The bus actually sounded a bit better. But we got more company and quit to have food, music and fun.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The next day we ran short on time, so we put back in the ECU and started to put things back so we could look at it another day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We started it to see if all was working at least as well as before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And, as it ran it sounded a bit better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Art took it for a ride and after about 15 minutes it started to sound great.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Later we took it out on the highway and it never stalled. It idled great. And sounds amazing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> O@ sensor still not plugged in but it sounds great at the moment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, the Dennis advice worked and we are off to a good start getting this lovely van back into excellent running condition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eric Caron
>>>>>> 84 and 85 Westfalias.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
| 
