Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 11:26:06 -0400
Reply-To: Eric Caron <ericcaron96@COMCAST.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Eric Caron <ericcaron96@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Front spring question
In-Reply-To: <BL0PR05MB491633F5815A3EB8951DD177A0519@BL0PR05MB4916.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
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Hi Dennis and others,
this thread is incredibly helpful.
some thoughts, when I replaced the front shocks in 2014 with the GW HD special valve version the van was sitting high even with the old very dead shocks. Putting in the new shocks didn’t change the height but did improve handling.
By the way I did that on my own thanks to this list support.
In this case the shocks are young in terms of miles maybe 25 K but 9 years old. They could be bad, but more likely the springs are the problem.
Doing a shim would be less expensive as I only need to do the front but I am concerned about further sag. And I would have the shocks checked during the process.
Changing the springs might very well be a better solution and several Vanagon folks I trust have told me not to use the GW shocks going forward.
I’ve heard mixed reviews from those using either the GW springs and the Schwank springs though the second seem to get more good reviews. Locals claim they will sag over time.
My 84 on GW springs and GW shocks from 2010 and 80 K sits tall and handles great.
The more real life feedback I can get the better.
I keep changing my mind on how to proceed.
One thing for sure, this job I’ll have done at a suspension shop followed up by alignment.
Luckily I have a couple local shops I trust for this.
I just need to have the parts needed before the job.
Eric Caron
85 GL Auto Westfalia
With sagging front end
> On Sep 23, 2022, at 8:53 AM, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Eric,
> Some thoughts for your springs. Installing shims or replacing the springs requires the same labor effort. At a minimum you should plan for some help. The fronts are not easy like the rears. Without the right spring compressor getting the springs back in place can be a challenge.
>
> That said, you also need to do some diagnoses. As you pay real attention to your vans status, it appears that something has changed. Change usually indicates wear, fatigue, or failure. Especially since this change was over a short time period.
>
> While shock absorbers do not function to lift or support the vehicle, your Bilstein HD Gas shocks when new did provide some upward lift. It is possible that one or both have lost their charge and that lift is gone. Also, shocks can fail in various ways including the piston binding or them even pumping up or down due to a bad valve. Unfortunately the way the Vanagon front end is set up the only real way to inspect or test is to remove them.
>
> Removing the shocks is fairly easy. It is important to note that the extension of the shock is the lower suspension stop. When removing the lower control arm needs to be supported. Allowing the suspension to drop without the shock limiting the travel will put a side load on the upper ball joints likely damaging them. What may work is putting the front up on ramps, favor the outside for clearance and then you can simply drop the shock out the bottom. After the shock condition is confirmed than you can go next step.
>
> Dennis
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com> On Behalf Of Eric Caron
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2022 12:27 PM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: Front spring question
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> Thank you for making great support products available but for me just as importantly, thank you for sending me in the right direction answering questions.
>
> What if any additional support products would be needed with the shims? I want to have everything I need to bring to my suspension shop in hand.
>
> My suspension has been updated recently so the shims should solve the sag issue.
>
> I have a 85 and want the original height so I'm planning on the larger 1 inch size. Is there any concern there? My measurements seem to show that would get me to just about 18 inch from middle of axil and I think that is where I was.
>
> Also once a spring saggs is it likely to continue to sag quickly or will it hopefully be another 40 years before I loose another inch?
> I know this is only something you can guess on but I'd love your thoughts.
>
> I'm really looking forward to such a straight forward and elegant solution to my front end sag issue.
>
> Eric Caron
> 85 Auto
>
>
>> On Sep 22, 2022, at 10:21 AM, <christopher@t3technique.com> <christopher@t3technique.com> wrote:
>>
>> Well, I'm not part of this list to try to create sales, only to help when I can, so forgive me if my response(s) lead to that.
>>
>> I make some really nice spring shims for the front. They are machined to fit on top of the stock rubber spring isolators and to fit snugly into the spring pocket. I'll add the link address here, but I think you'll have to copy and paste it. If that doesn't work, you can see them on the T3 Technique website under the Front Suspension section in the second row of items.
>>
>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ft3technique.com%2Fcollections%2Ffront-suspension-parts%2Fproducts%2Fspring-shim-set-front-only&data=05%7C01%7C%7C717d93b0cfe94c9e614b08da9cb75477%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637994608469759871%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QBpwhIthPyAyKWZFKKgFrCohFuIghvOFBs5u0ADjWFA%3D&reserved=0 <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ft3technique.com%2Fcollections%2Ffront-suspension-parts%2Fproducts%2Fspring-shim-set-front-only&data=05%7C01%7C%7C717d93b0cfe94c9e614b08da9cb75477%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637994608469759871%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QBpwhIthPyAyKWZFKKgFrCohFuIghvOFBs5u0ADjWFA%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> Christopher
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Eric Caron <ericcaron96@comcast.net <mailto:ericcaron96@comcast.net>>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2022 6:58 AM
>> To: christopher@t3technique.com <mailto:christopher@t3technique.com>
>> Cc: Vanagon List <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM <mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>>
>> Subject: Re: Front spring question
>>
>> Wow!
>>
>> This is really great news for me as my springs seem to be clean and in very nice condition. The rear are still at stock height.
>>
>> So, the next question would be how do I shim the front springs to get back to level? What materials are needed and are there any directions out there?
>>
>> I'm not ruling out doing it myself until I learn more, but if a spring compressor is involved I'm likely to bring it to my alignment and suspension shop!
>>
>> Any how to and material lists out there?
>>
>> Eric Caron
>> 85 GL Auto
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 21, 2022, at 10:57 PM, <christopher@t3technique.com <mailto:christopher@t3technique.com>> <christopher@t3technique.com <mailto:christopher@t3technique.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> One thing to keep in mind is that springs maintain their original spring rate (stiffness) throughout their life, even if the "sag" (which is officially referred to as "losing load height). In other words, if a spring had a 400 lb spring rate when it left the assembly line, as long as the spring is not broken, has not been cut, etc., it will still have a 400 lb rate for the rest of its life. What this means is that any handling degradation you feel is mostly due to alignment change that occurs as the ride height changes over time.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, shimming the stock springs is perfectly acceptable/reasonable. In fact, VW did an excellent job of specifying the spring rates for the Vanagon, so keeping the stock springs has some advantages over going with stiffer aftermarket springs. .
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com <mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>> On Behalf Of Eric Caron
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2022 5:41 PM
>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM <mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
>>> Subject: Front spring question
>>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> During a recent trip my suspension had a few issues. One was that the front springs sagged. The front is about 1 inch less then it has been for the last 10 years. Example when the van is parked on a level surface the sliding door now closes. This never happened before the trip, van sat level.
>>>
>>> So my question is, rather than replacing the springs is there a safe and reasonable way to shim the front? I'd rather do that then try to drop the back.
>>> The springs are not rusty and seem intact. The van rides and handles ok. Maybe not as good as before but not bad. Still handling better than before the tire and suspension upgrades.
>>> Springs are not broken.
>>>
>>> Ideas and experiences?
>>>
>>> Eric Caron
>>> 85 GL Auto
>>>
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