Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 20:00:51 +0000
Reply-To: Richard Koerner <rjkinpb@SBCGLOBAL.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Richard Koerner <rjkinpb@SBCGLOBAL.NET>
Subject: Constant improvement
In-Reply-To: <714121812.799384.1679944567605@mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Also....it is like why we don't drive Model T's. Why we don't fly in DC-3s. Why we don't use Windows 95. Why we don't use flipphones. Sometimes it's a new discovery; sometimes it is pressure from the Sales Team; sometimes it is frustration from the Manufacturing Team; sometimes there is motivation for a mid-level boss to strive forward; sometimes it's about the schedule. In general....almost all of this falls on the shoulders of the Design Engineer, trying to please everyone.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:16:07 PM PDT, Richard Koerner <rjkinpb@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I don't know for certain....but I suspect largely due for manufacturing reasons. Same thing as the "death" plastic part at firewall for fuel. Now...which one of you would not pay $100 to sit at the same conference table as the original engineers did, to understand the reasoning behind the decisions.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:05:11 PM PDT, Dan N <dn92610@gmail.com> wrote:
Now I have a question...Would the vanagon cooling system be more efficient if the engineers put the expansion tank, the overflow tank, at the front near the radiator?As it is now they sit in the engine bay close to the muffler tin and the muffler is always hot and that may make the tanks be brittle sooner, more prone to breakage.
On Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 11:26 AM Richard Koerner <rjkinpb@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I knew somebody was going to mention the GoWesty product with their gizmo to visualize. So....inquiring minds want to know....where was the source of leak on that product? Aside from higher cost and another point of failure, I went for the simple VanCafe one. Love it.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:10:33 AM PDT, Bruce Todd <beeceetee@gmail.com> wrote:
The aluminum tanks from GW have an inspection port for viewing coolant
level. BTW - I did order a GW aluminum tank - and it did leak - the
mechanic caught the defect when pressure testing. A one-off defect I
suppose - the replacement has been solid.
I have had 4 plastic tanks - some lasted longer than others - 2 were
supposedly the top replacement tanks but they all ended up cracking and
leaking. Just saw an original tank for sale on Craigslist here in
Vancouver from a 87 Vanagon.
Bruce
On Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 10:04 AM Richard Koerner <rjkinpb@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
> Correct! The translucent nature of plastic affords some reassurance
> about liquid inside. The expensive Aluminum welded pressure tanks negates
> this ability. No problem! They don't leak! (Connecting hoses might.) I
> think Dennis pointed out once about the Massive size of Vanagon cooling
> system. I mean, the size of the radiator, the size of those big hoses
> going fore and aft, the Pressure Tank, the Overflow Tank. Lots of liquid.
> Still....you don't want nary a drop to drip or steam out.
>
> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 09:52:26 AM PDT, OlRivrRat <
> olrivrrat@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Actually, most cars since the Mid’60s have a Coolant Overflow &
> Recovery
>
> system but what makes the Vanagons Expansion Tank necessary is the lack of
>
> access to the Radiator which is where the Pressure Cap is located on most
> all
>
> other cars ~ The Vanagons Expansion Tank is really not much more that just
> a
>
> fat translucent Manifold where a Fill Point & Pressure Cap & Level Sensor
> reside
>
> & probably could very well have just been an opaque plastic or metal
> manifold
>
> as is found in some more modern cars but the Translucent Tank does provide
>
> for much better Coolant Level Sensing both Electrically & Visually ~
>
>
>
> > On 26 Mar , 2023, at 5:08 PM, Dan N <dn92610@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> >
> > Richard... you're right on...
> >
> > I'd think this is a unique feature of the vanagon... maybe there are some
> > cars out there that have it but I don't know about it...
> >
> > For reference, my ML430 doesn't have that feature (although it's German).
> > Only one coolant reservoir, recommended to fill it HALF way to leave room
> > for expansion... Too much pressure? The coolant will be dumped on the
> > ground. I have to top it up when the coolant is too low, under their
> mark.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 3:28 PM Richard Koerner <rjkinpb@sbcglobal.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> My understanding is this: coolant gets hot. It expands. The coolant
> in
> >> Pressure Tank (the one with the blue cap) overflows and expels into the
> >> Overflow Tank (the one behind the license plate). Later, stuff cools
> >> down....and magically coolant gets sucked back into Pressure Tank, and
> all
> >> is good for the next cycle of Hot/Cold. If coolant diminishes, it is
> >> because of some leak. These days, most likely steam from Blue Cap or
> the
> >> Tank itself. Remedies are available.
> >>
> >> On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 02:43:11 PM PDT, Dan N <dn92610@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanks Dennis...
> >>
> >> This comes very very handy at the right time. My daughter came back
> from a
> >> long trip and she has to top up the expansion cooling tank every couple
> >> hundred miles. A small cooling hose was replaced in Tucson, AZ and I
> think
> >> the shop didn't bleed it right. I will do it myself when the weather is
> >> better... cold, rain, snow here in Oregon.
> >>
> >> thank you... thank you...thank you,
> >>
> >> dan
> >>
> >> On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 8:05 AM Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Adding to the recent discussion on the future of service support for
> the
> >>> Vanagon, having to deal with the cascade of parts failures that often
> >>> accompanies repairs. Imagine the impact this presents to a shop now
> that
> >>> the vehicle has to pushed off the lift and out of the way waiting for
> mor
> >>> parts.
> >>>
> >>> Now back the technical.
> >>> The hardest recovery for the Vanagon cooling system is having the
> >> radiator
> >>> and coolant pipes emptied. This is the worst case have to bleed the
> >> system
> >>> enough to get anything to flow. That bypass has to opened or the hose
> >>> fittings opened enough for air to get out. I have even disconnected
> that
> >>> top hose and back filled the hose and coolant pipe as that bypass is
> not
> >>> really large enough to do this quickly.
> >>>
> >>> As for method of bleeding I have post many times. The process needs to
> be
> >>> done quickly and be completed before the engine can significantly
> warmup.
> >>>
> >>> 2 nd person helps.
> >>> Have person in rear ready to pour coolant and install cap. Screwdriver
> or
> >>> something to hold engine 1,800 to 2,000 rpm.
> >>> Person in front to operate bleeder. Here is the process!
> >>>
> >>> If system empty open radiator bleeder, fill pressure tank, allow
> coolant
> >>> to flow down as much as possible. This will allow some coolant to fill
> >>> coolant pipes and bottom of radiator. Do not raise front! Both heater
> >>> valves should also be open.
> >>> Option, If you have the means to pressurize (test set) the system, do
> so.
> >>> You can use pressure to push the coolant up into the radiator. Close
> >>> bleeder, add more coolant and use pressure opening bleeder, repeat
> until
> >>> you get coolant at the bleeder. This method will do 90% of the bleeding
> >>> process.
> >>> Without the pressure fill option, start engine and immediate get revved
> >> up
> >>> to the 1,800 rpm or so and hold it until completely done. This is
> >> extremely
> >>> important as you need the pump to do the work.
> >>> Fill pressure tank while the front bleeder (and bypass) is open until
> >>> coolant comes out near bubble free.
> >>> Close front bleeder. Top off pressure tank and install known good
> >> pressure
> >>> cap. Now you can allow engine to return to idle.
> >>> Hopefully this is all done before the temp gauge even begins to move.
> >>> This should get you to the system will work. Let it run, test that both
> >>> heaters are getting some flow. Occasionally rev engine a bit, watch
> temp
> >>> gauge and check that you get radiator flow. During this reconnect hose
> to
> >>> recovery tank and fill. Ensure radiator fan turn on.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> If this does not work, then next step is to wait for it to completely
> >> cool
> >>> down. Do not open pressure and try to continue filling a hot engine. As
> >> the
> >>> coolant warms up it will quickly vaporize and trying to fill the system
> >>> while waiting for the thermostat to open actually effects engine the
> same
> >>> as system pressure failure while driving. The thermostat needs coolant
> >> flow
> >>> to operate. Without flow it and the temp sensor can only sense steam
> and
> >> at
> >>> that point the engine is being tweaked.
> >>>
> >>> If all is well, over the next few heat-cool cycles the system will
> purge
> >>> the remaining air out and refill from the recovery tank. Monitor it as
> it
> >>> may need to be refilled. Keep in mind that fresh coolant will also have
> >>> some entrained air that will also purge out.
> >>>
> >>> As for the choice of parts replacement, 85 was the last year that part
> >> was
> >>> used. Do you think used will be reliably better than what you have?
> >>> Current plastic replacement is probably from old acquired tooling with
> >>> questionable quality. It should work but!
> >>> For the aluminum one, someone invested significant time and money to
> >>> develop that part. If we want entrepreneurs to continue to invest in
> >>> supporting our vehicles we need to buy their stuff.
> >>>
> >>> Dennis
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com> On Behalf Of
> Eric
> >>> Caron
> >>> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2023 9:02 PM
> >>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> >>> Subject: Blam! Bleeder valve destruction
> >>>
> >>> Hi listers,
> >>>
> >>> So, Still working on doing my own radiator change out.
> >>>
> >>> New undamaged one now in the van. This one is made in South Africa in
> >>> early 2020 according to the sticker.
> >>>
> >>> I waited for a friend to help with the process of adding in coolant
> into
> >>> the reservoir. He has done this work before.
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately. He lost patients when the temp sensor didn’t open and
> let
> >>> hot coolant in and decided to open the engine bleeder
> >>>
> >>> This is the bleeder I mentioned was stuck and I decided not to ever
> turn
> >>> it.
> >>>
> >>> Well he did, and it would then leak and could not be made to stop
> >> leaking.
> >>>
> >>> I have some options now.
> >>>
> >>> First, anyone out there got a good used 1.9 bleeder set up?
> >>> Next, I could get a new plastic one.
> >>>
> >>> I only check GW as the site is pretty easy for me to use, but other
> >>> venders might have better options.
> >>> There is a aluminum one there for 221 but I’d like to be a bit more
> >> budget
> >>> on this as I don’t expect the 1.9 set up to last more then another 10
> >> years
> >>> or so. After that electric?
> >>> Another option, my friend took a old 1.9 bleeder and removed the valve
> >> and
> >>> inspected the set up. Two tired o rings. He suggests we replace the o
> >>> rings and then exchange this one with mine.
> >>>
> >>> That means just the piece that you open and close and not the entire
> >>> assembly.
> >>>
> >>> Anyone ever try that before?
> >>>
> >>> This spare valve he will fix is working smoothly but the O rings are
> hard
> >>> and broken, very likely like the ones in my current now leaking valve.
> >>>
> >>> Thoughts and suggestions?
> >>>
> >>> I know the “best thing is to upgrade everything to 2.1 but that isn’t
> an
> >>> option unless I get a donor for the needed parts.
> >>> In a way I’m glad he turned the bleeder as it clearly was in bad shape
> >> and
> >>> even if not turned was likely to fail. So maybe best it happened in
> the
> >>> garage.
> >>>
> >>> Bleeder thoughts or sources appreciated.
> >>>
> >>> Eric Caron
> >>> 84 Westfalia
> >>>
> >>
>
>
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