Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 09:43:22 -0600 (CDT)
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@vanagon.com>
From: dunham@mpd.tandem.com (Jerry Dunham)
Subject: Re: Sportsvans (sic)
]From vanagon@lenti.med.umn.edu Tue Apr 12 03:47:06 1994
]From: William Warburton <william@festival.ed.ac.uk>
]
] Hmm, I seem to have stirred things up a bit... oops!
You mean that wasn't the goal? :-)
]> I've only seen the Audi-5 (petrol). Is there a diesel here?
]
] I have heard that the diesel isn't available in the US, though I think it
]is sold in Canada. I gather diesels are generally unpopular in the US, at
]least for "normal" cars, but it still seems a bit wierd to me.
Diesels went through a period of popularity here about a decade and a half
ago. Several manufacturers rushed to catch up with the sudden demand by
modifying spark-ignition engines for diesel use, rather than design new
engines from the ground up. Quite a few of these rushed efforts turned
out to be VERY unreliable (the Oldsmobile/Cadillac efforts come to mind),
and many buyers got the idea that diesels in passenger cars were by defi-
nition unreliable in the extreme. The other problem is that diesel fuel
isn't significantly cheaper here than petrol.
]> Putting the engine in front causes the machine to be
]> longer for the same internal hauling volume. It also drives putting the
]
] Yes, that's precisely what I meant about lack of length in the interior: the
]"brick" is long enough to get a <3 metre windsurfer behind the drivers seat
]whilst still being about 4.5 metres long overall. The new vans arn't.
Bingo!
]> ... If the
]> same effort that was put into the EuroVan had been put into a new genera-
]> tion of Vanagon, with perhaps a transverse five on it's side behind the
]> rear axle, the result could have added the advantages of the EuroVan to
]> the advantages the Vanagon already had, while making for greater common-
]> ality of parts with the rest of the VW-Audi line. The EuroVan may be nice
]> in many ways, but I think they blew an opportunity to make it even nicer,
]> and less of a clone of other machines already on the market.
]
] I see what you mean and I strongly suspect that this was considered by VW.
]Bear in mind, though, that a lot of potential buyers chose not to buy the VW
]because of the wierd shaped interior. I think VW decided that they would gain
]more by offering a van with a conventional layout than by continuing with
]the rear engine. I have to agree with you- I preferred the rear engined
]setup- but I think VW probably made the right decision having seen the large
]number of vans they are selling (in Europe).
Perhaps they would have been ahead of the game to come out with the new
front-drive model for the Euromarket, while merely updating the Vanagon
with a different drivetrain for the North American market. I can't be-
lieve that development costs for putting a Passat drivetrain under the
floor of a Vanagon would have been very great, and they might well have
garnered more sales here in this market.
]> I don't think the EuroVan is any more "European" than the Vanagon. Both
]> are somewhat out of the minivan mainstream here in North America. If any-
]
] What exactly *is* a minivan?
A van that's not very big. :-)
Here in our market things have apparently developed differently from what
you see on your side of the pond.
Originally, what most folks here thought of as vans were International
Metros, Chevrolet StepVans, and Divcos. These things had the proportions
of a house and weren't much smaller. They were designed for city deli-
very and could even be driven standing up. Common uses were milk deli-
very, bread delivery, tool and auto parts deliver, furniture delivery,
etc. These were VERY industrial machines.
In the sixties we began to see the occasional VW buses more often, and
people began to wonder if there might be something to this odd vehicle.
The American manufacturers all took a shot at hitting the same target,
with varying degrees of success. All built truck-based delivery vehicles
that were of similar size and shape to the VW, and all found an immediate
market with small businesses for whom the big vans were simply too much.
Passenger versions also sprouted, but these were considerably less suc-
cessful on the market because they were far too trucklike. Chevrolet
also tried doing the same thing with the Corvair Greenbrier, which was
a MUCH closer shot to the VW, including the air-cooled, rear-mounted
boxer engine (but a six), and might well have been a success as a people
mover but for getting a reputation as being unreliable.
Meanwhile, the "minivan" market was underway as a commercial market.
All the major American players came out with long-wheelbase versions to
give even more room for hauling stuff and these quickly became the big
sellers. New generation machines moved the front wheels from behind
the driver (VW-style) to in front of the driver and increased dimensions
all around, while still being front-engined and rear-driven as all but
the Greenbrier had been from the start. These larger vans gradually re-
place most of the tall boxes people had previously known as vans and be-
came the "standard van", available in two wheelbases and three lengths.
Cab-only versions were made available for installation of larger camper
or truck bodies. These things are still available here, sell large num-
bers into the commercial markets, but sell much smaller numbers into the
passenger van and small camper/motorhome markets. They are big, thirsty,
and cumbersome.
Since the minivans of the sixties grew into the standard vans of the
seventies and eighties, VW was left all alone (again) as the lone "mini"
van until, in the early '80s, Chrysler came out with the Dodge Caravan
and Plymouth Voyager twins. Unlike previous vans, these were built on
auto, not truck, chassis, and drove more like a car than the big vans.
They were similar in size to the VW, but lower and with less room. A
commercial Dodge RamVan version has been available all along, but you
hardly ever see them, while Caravans and Voyagers are EVERYwhere. This
is apparently the car America was waiting for, a vehicle that drove like
a car, had (some) style, and held as much (almost) as a small van. This
became the definitive "minivan" here in the U.S.
Ford and GM answered with truck-based minivans of their own, but few
were fooled. They were the same basic style as the Chryslers and held
even more, but they drove like trucks. They sell well into the small
commercial market, but make little dent in the people-mover market. GM
came out with a series of auto-based people movers of their own, but
Chrysler hardly noticed. The Japanese first hit with truck-based people
movers that looked like slightly smaller VWs with a little more style,
but they didn't fool anyone much either and were eventually replace with
more car-like people movers (Toyota and Nissan) or dropped altogether
(Mitsubishi). Through all this the VW continued to sell to a niche
market of people who wanted the room of the American truck-based mini-
vans without their industrial nature (and who would put up with the lack
of power).
Today the volume markets for minivans are: people movers, owned by
Chrysler but being attacked by Ford vigorously; and commercial, owned
primarily by GM and Ford. The EuroVan comes across mechanically as a
competitor to the front-drive, car-based people movers, but has the
style of a commercial van. Since GM and Ford commercial vans can be
bought (with V6s) for less than a EuroVan, VW hasn't much chance of
taking that market, and it just lacks the style to take many sales from
the Chrysler minivans in the people-mover market.
]> thing the Vanagon is further from the mainstream than the EuroVan, which
]> comes across as a somewhat industrial clone of the Dodge Caravan to many
]> non-VW people.
]
] The what? I think I've seen one Dodge Caravan. The competition for the VW
]are vans like the Ford Transit, Toyota HiAce, Renault Trafic and Fiat Ducato
]against which it is perceived as better built, nicer to drive and more
]reliable. The reason the camper conversions are popular is because VW
]continues to offer a high quality, pleasant to drive vehicle to use as a base
]for the conversion. The VW manages to sell into the "People Carrier" market
]as well (Espace/Previa) because of the relative sophistication of its vans.
Obviously a very different market.
]> I think the problems with the EuroVan are two:
]>
]> It's not perceived as enough different from the mainstream vans
]> for people to believe it offers any real advantage to compensate
]> for its lack of style.
]
] However, in Europe, this lack of difference is a major plus as it means that
]all the people who didn't buy it because they couldn't march a large load
]through the rear doors can now do so. Timber merchants don't care about style.
Timber merchants (lumberyards) here are buying GM and Ford minivans which
carry just as large a load, or full-size vans that carry much more.
]> VW as a whole is suffering through a quality crisis here. This
]> is not good when the public perceives your products as more ex-
]> pensive than the competition.
]
] This is not the case in Europe- VW (financial problems aside) is generally
]seen as a quality product, offering dependable, durable transport.
]
] This is why I think the problem VW has with the new van (I find it really
]hard to think of it as a "Eurovan" :-) is the difference between the US and
]European markets.
Agreed.
] I hope I'm not coming across as too abrasive, here, I'm just trying to show
]the European perspective, which I hope is interesting given that it is VWs
]main market.
Not to me. I find this discussion interesting and educational.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jerry Dunham, MSE hoosier@rider.cactus.org (512)244-8598
Tandem Computers, Inc. dunham@mpd.tandem.com
Integrity Systems Division dunham_jerry@tandem.com
"A healthy male adult bore consumes each year one-and-a-half times his
own weight in other people's patience."
- J. Updike
