Date: Sat, 16 Apr 1994 10:37:27 -0500 (EST)
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@vanagon.com>
From: RGOLEN@umassd.edu
Subject: Re:RE: The Suburban saga continues....Again
Steven "Paragon of Vanagon" Johnson ;-) writes:
>I realize that the vanagon is underpowered, but I don't mind it
>that way one bit. I think if it had a six cylinder, it would
>probably be too expensive in gas.
Oh, ok...its ok for YOUR van to be underpowered because YOU
like it that way, but God forbid anyone else's van should
be right?
VWs have ALWAYS been underpowered when compared to other cars.
It seems that their engineeers have this delightful habbit
to give their cars just enough power to get the job done..
nothing more, nothing less. Why should the EV be any different?
I would prefer to have an underpowered, understressed engine
in my car that would last 200K miles (a la my 86 GTI), than
to have a hotted up engine that would turn to crap at
90k miles.
>>The EV is much more like a minivan and was given a front end
>>engine that I would expect to have engine power that could
>>rivel it's competition. But nooooo, it is still comparitively
>>underpowered. And note, it is NOT in competition with the
>>Vanagon, it is in competition with other minivans. Other
>>minivans are cheaper and more powerful. And I definitely see
>>alot more of the competition on the road than I do see of the
>>EV.
First, get your terms straight. The EV is not a MINIvan, it is
considered a MID-Sized van by NHTSA and DOT as well as by VW and
the insurance industry. Besides, put them side by side...a dodge
caravan and a EV. Unless you have serious depth perception
problems, you will see the EV is taller, longer, and wider than
the Caravan.
As to your arguements of seeing more of the competition than the
EV, well I guess I could say the same about the Vanagon, hell
about ALL VW vans. If you carefully look at the advertising that
VW has done with the EV, you will note that it is NOT positioned
to be in competition with the minivans. The choice of the term
MID-Sized van was not chosen by accident.
You say other minivans are cheaper and more powerful. So what.
'Mericun vans of ALL sizes have been cheaper, more powerful and
at times larger than VW vans since the mid-60s when Ford had
the Econoline, Chevy had a Corvair version as well as a front
engined van, and Dodge had their own version. I see a hell of
a lot more of those vans around than Vanagons.
Again, why are you trying to compare apples with oranges. The EV
is as much of a minivan as the Vanagon was....just because it has
a front engine configuration does not make it a minivan. And,
please don't argue two sides of an issue. Earlier you say you
like your Vanagon underpowered, yet you want lots of power in a
new van like the Caravans have. You can't have it both ways. VWs
are built to a design philosophy...get the job done as
practically and efficiently as possible. Caravans...look good,
act like a car and handle like any 'mericun car should.
Why do Caravans have more power? Lower center of gravity makes
it safe for most air-headed drivers. Besides, Chrysler wants
them to look and act like cars...just look at their ads, so
if a sedan has a V6, so should the Caravan. Hell, while
VW was producing 4 cylinder vans, Detroit was producing
6 & 8 cylinder vans. Nothing new here.
>Not to mention that the upcoming Winnebago version of the EV is
>in the $30K range. Give me a break. How many people can afford
>that? Given the number of people with new Vans (listed in this
>mailing list) I don't see too many buyers for the EV Camper. If
>there are, I want an application. ;)
VW campers have always been expensive, just compare them to
existing camper conversions. So you are not telling me anything
new here. Perhaps if you wish to continue on this thread, maybe
you should index the prices of VW campers since the 70s to the
consumer price index to see if infact $30k is unreasonable.
Second, there is no data available as to whether or not the price
is outrageous considering the van has not gone on sale yet.
>> VW definately has some marketing problems in the US, thats a
>>given, however, it does not have problems in other markets. The
>>T4 van which is the EuroVan designation, is already out selling
>>T3s or Vanagons, back in the home markets (if you compare
>>units per year). So obviously VW is doing something right.
>>Are you comparing the first selling year of the EV to the first
>>years of the Vanagon or to the last years of the Vanagon?
I'm not sure what the baseline is here. When I was in Wolfsburg,
I commented to my guide on how many T4 vans I saw in Germany,
France and Switzerland compared to T3s. His response was that
sales were higher than the best years of the T3.
>>
>>So lets get to the meat of the arguement. I have been the
>>proud owner of a EuroVan for 15 months now, and have 20k miles
>>on it. We bought it because it had more room inside than a
>>Dodge Caravan. Just park them side by side and it doesn't take
>>an Einstein to see which is bigger....the EuroVan...by at least
>> 40%. Hell I can even see the top of a Caravan from the
>>driver's seat in the EuroVan.
>Could you give us a price comparison as well as a performance
>comparison? Okay it's roomier but how much more to pay for it?
There's that word again PERFORMANCE. If I wanted performance I
would have purchased the 1990 Audi 100 Turbo Quattro wagon that I
was looking at at the time I purchased the EV. One more time...VW
vans are not PERFORMANCE vehicles, never have been and never will
be.
Why did I want the EV as opposed to a Caravan? First a Caravan is
NOT a VW. VWs are large, boxy, tall, and underpowered with a
certain reliable, user friendly (at least to this user, and
probably to the rest of the users on the net) and long lasting.
A major reason for not buying a Caravan...rear licence plate trim
on early Caravans. Ever notice that the majority of early
Caravans are missing the plastic trim piece above the rear
licence plate. Shit, if they cant get a damned piece of plastic
to hold on in a non stressed job, how can the rest of the quality
be?
Other reasons:
Lack of availablity of a 5 speed transmission. I HATE automatics.
Lack of shoulder room. We traded in my wife's Golf GT because we
had to haul a 14 yr old, a 10 yr old and a 1 year old (w/car
seat) around. When we put all three in the bench seat of a
caravan, the amount of shoulder room gained was not worth dumping
the Golf.
Handling. If I wanted a 'Mericun car, I would have bought a
Taurus Wagon. The Caravan handles just like any pure vanilla,
brain-dead typical US consumer car. Blind fold me and put me in a
Caravan, a Taurus Wagon, or any other US sedan, and I wouldn't be
able to tell the difference.
Besides I wanted a NEW car, and there were no NEW aircooled VW
Vans, this is as close as one can get for a new VW van.
>> Ever try sitting 7 grown adults in a Caravan in anything
>>resembling comfort? Face it the caravan is nothing than a
>>shrunk down body on a compact car floor pan. You have no real
>>shoulder or leg room. Forget about luggage room. If you take 7
>>people in a caravan, you won't have much room for luggage.
>It's still a minivan is a minivan in my book. If you need a
>people carrier either one will do.
Again get your terms straight...mini vs midi. Front wheel drive
does not a minivan make.
>> True, the interior space of the EuroVan is somewhat smaller
>> than the hallowed Vanagon if you look at length, but what the
>> EuroVan looses in length, it makes up by additional
>> luggage/carrying space where the engine was in the Vanagon.
> I've seen the bed fold out for the EV, I think your down to
> somewhere between a twin and a full-size bed. It's more of a
> single purpose vehicle than the Vanagon Multivan.
>
Veery Eeenteresting...considering the EV is as wide as the
Vanagon. I guess its because the outer walls of the EV are 2 feet
thick :-)
>> Ok lets address power. You Vanagon owners should talk about
>> power.. talk about underpowered. VW vans were NEVER hot rods.
>> Hell an old 60s model Ford Econoline with a 170 cu in 6
>> cylinder motor would blow the doors off of any VW van. I drove
>> a 2.0 L 4 cylinder VW T4 in France (in the Alps) this January.
>> Handled nice, did 130 to 140 klicks on the Autoroute with no
>> problem, and made it up and down mountains no sweat.
> I just expected more power from the EV when they moved the
> engine forward. Why not? I still don't understand why a six
> wasn't put in the Vanagon. It was probably price driven. I
> don't know if I would have gone for that or not. I doubt it,
> but they should have let the customers decide.
Back in Europe, the standard T4 engine is the 2.0L, 8v 4 cylinder
unit. Plenty of power for a VW. Let me give you an example. We
lived in a village called LeSappey en Chartreuse, horizontally
4km from Grenoble. To get to LeSappey was a 12.5km drive with a
3,500 feet climb. Easily done in 4th gear with 3 adults and 3
childeren and luggage, etc. Why not 5th gear? Try going around a
hairpin in ANY car in 5th.
We drove our EV in NH and VT. Not a problem. Only had to
downshift from 5th because of other traffic.
It appears the 5 cylinder engine was added to the US market to
support towning and an automatic transmission.
>> The thing that you all are overlooking...the EuroVan is to the
>> earlier rear-engined vans as the Rabbit/Golf were to the
>> Beetle. Two different cars, yet very much the same.
> This sounds suspiciously like the r.a.vw split the group debate
> and I don't EVEN want to get that started in here. I'll just
> say that I disagree and I can see no relationship what-so-ever.
Judging from the list of your cars you don't have any long term
experience with a Golf or Rabbit to qualify you to speak on the
comparison between a golf/Rabbit and a bug, and by extrapolation,
the EV vs. any other VW van.
Well, I'm willing to pick up the debate here. Unfortunately
unless you are prepared to spend $60k for a new Porsche 911, the
aircooled rear-engined vehicle in the US is dead. Killed off by
emission controls and safety regs. As to the watercooled vanagon
engine, lets just say that was an error on VWs part as much as
the "high-torque" 36 hp bus engine was in 1959/60. The only
answer for VW was to go FWD, plain and simple. And it seems to be
working in every market except the US. Face it, after the mid 60s
the US was no longer its prime market for selling vans.
>>
>> I owned a 1967 Camper for 8 years during the 70s. Drove it
>> here...drove it there, put on close to 150k miles on it (while
>> also owning two other cars which were on the road
>> simultaneously), so I have some experience with the T1 vans at
>> least. Whats the point?
>>
>> About two months after I bought the EV, I was driving down a
>> stretch of interstate...flat...straight...boring as hell. I
>> had the Stones on the stereo.....my mind began to drift. The
>> sun started comming in through the driver's door, and the cab
>> was warming up. Instinctively I reached up to the ceiling to
>> open up the vent....
>>
>> For a brief moment I was in my 67 bus. That's how close in
>> spirit the two vans are.
> Maybe you had a flashback... I don't know. How you can confuse
> being in the EV with being in the noisier and having that
> special VW smell '67 is beyond me. ;)
>
If it was a flashback, I would have had a 6 pack of Busch beer in
the cooler (remember the days when Busch beer was ABs "price
beer" and sold on "Busch Special Days" (once a month) at $.99 a
six pack?), and a blond, horny 18 year old female in the back
begging me to pull over at the next rest area! :-)
> P.S. Ric, if that EV is so good, how come we get more
> 'hot-n-heavy' stories about the '56 Bug. ;)
>Steven Johnson
Why the 56? of all of my current cars (83 GTI autoxer, 86 GTI, 93
Eurovan), or my past cars (57 beetle, 67 Ghia, 62 pick up, 67
camper, 66 double cab, 68 type 3), the 56 has ALWAYS been my
favorite, why do you think I've kept it around for 20 years.
Ric
>sjohnson@pcocd2.intel.com
>'91 VW Camper GL, '86 Nissan Sentra
>Previously owned: '68 bug, '70 squareback, '74 Camper
