Date:         Fri, 15 Apr 94 21:52:47 PDT
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@vanagon.com>
From:         Steve Johnson <sjohnson@pcocd2.intel.com>
Subject:      Re: The Suburban saga continues....Again

Ric EV Golen writes:
> I have to jump in here regarding all of the Negative, and sometimes
> unfounded comments regarding the EuroVan. First off, the EuroVan is
> not a Vanagon, or a Bay Window van, or a splitwindshield van for
> that matter. Nor is it a friggen Dodge Caravan.

I don't think Joel is the one to take the heat for some of the comments
about EV.  I think I made more negative comments than Joel.  And, I
stand by them.
> 
> All of the points that I have heard so far is that this is nothing
> more than a minivan, and an underpowered one at that. Get a clue
> folks.

I realize that the vanagon is underpowered, but I don't mind it that
way one bit.  I think if it had a six cylinder, it would probably
be too expensive in gas.  The EV is much more like a minivan and 
was given a front end engine that I would expect to have engine 
power that could rivel it's competition.  But nooooo, it is still
comparitively underpowered.  And note, it is NOT in competition with 
the Vanagon, it is in competition with other minivans.  Other minivans
are cheaper and more powerful.  And I definitely see alot more of
the competition on the road than I do see of the EV.  

Not to mention that the upcoming Winnebago version of the EV is in
the $30K range.  Give me a break.  How many people can afford that?
Given the number of people with new Vans (listed in this mailing list)
I don't see too many buyers for the EV Camper.  If there are, I want
an application.  ;)

> 
> VW definately has some marketing problems in the US, thats a given,
> however, it does not have problems in other markets. The T4 van
> which is the EuroVan designation, is already out selling T3s or
> Vanagons, back in the home markets (if you compare units per
> year). So obviously VW is doing something right.

Are you comparing the first selling year of the EV to the first years 
of the Vanagon or to the last years of the Vanagon?

> 
> So lets get to the meat of the arguement. I have been the proud owner
> of a EuroVan for 15 months now, and have 20k miles on it. We bought
> it because it had more room inside than a Dodge Caravan. Just park 
> them side by side and it doesn't take an Einstein to see which is
> bigger....the EuroVan...by at least 40%. Hell I can even see the 
> top of a Caravan from the driver's seat in the EuroVan.

Could you give us a price comparison as well as a performance compa-
rison?  Okay it's roomier but how much more to pay for it?

> 
> Ever try sitting 7 grown adults in a Caravan in anything resembling
> comfort? Face it the caravan is nothing than a shrunk down body
> on a compact car floor pan. You have no real shoulder or leg
> room. Forget about luggage room. If you take 7 people in a 
> caravan, you won't have much room for luggage.

It's still a minivan is a minivan in my book.  If you need a people
carrier either one will do.

> 
> True, the interior space of the EuroVan is somewhat smaller than
> the hallowed Vanagon if you look at length, but what the EuroVan
> looses in length, it makes up by additional luggage/carrying space
> where the engine was in the Vanagon.

I've seen the bed fold out for the EV, I think your down to somewhere
between a twin and a full-size bed.  It's more of a single purpose 
vehicle than the Vanagon Multivan.
> 
> Ok lets address power. You Vanagon owners should talk about power..
> talk about underpowered. VW vans were NEVER hot rods. Hell an old
> 60s model Ford Econoline with a 170 cu in 6 cylinder motor would
> blow the doors off of any VW van. I drove a 2.0 L 4 cylinder
> VW T4 in France (in the Alps) this January. Handled nice, did
> 130 to 140 klicks on the Autoroute with no problem, and made
> it up and down mountains no sweat. 

I just expected more power from the EV when they moved the engine
forward.  Why not?  I still don't understand why a six wasn't put
in the Vanagon.  It was probably price driven.  I don't know if
I would have gone for that or not.  I doubt it, but they should
have let the customers decide.

> 
> Who the hell needs 6 cylinders in a van anyway, that's like saying
> lets toss a 6 cylinder in a Vanagon because its underpowered.

So I can get the hell up that damn hill today dude!  ;)
> 
> At least the EuroVan has a tried and true REAL engine in the Audi
> derrived 2.5 5 cylinder, as opposed to a bastardized immitation
> Subaru flat four watercooled, leaking head and 30,000 mile
> replacement water pumps.

I think Joel mentioned very explicitly that he was aware of the 
reliability issues.  Those even stumped him (and me).  But he 
(and I) still like it better because it has more character or charm. 

> 
> Before you go off on the EuroVan spend some time with one. It cruises
> nicely at 80 mph, it handles better around curves, exit ramps, than
> Caravans, Jeep Cherokees, and probably the blessed Vanagon. 
> 
I may ask one out for a date, but my Vanagon does get jealous.  ;)

> The thing that you all are overlooking...the EuroVan is to the earlier
> rear-engined vans as the Rabbit/Golf were to the Beetle. Two different
> cars, yet very much the same.

This sounds suspiciously like the r.a.vw split the group debate and I
don't EVEN want to get that started in here.   I'll just say that I 
disagree and I can see no relationship what-so-ever.
> 
> I owned a 1967 Camper for 8 years during the 70s. Drove it here...drove
> it there, put on close to 150k miles on it (while also owning two
> other cars which were on the road simultaneously), so I have some
> experience with the T1 vans at least. Whats the point?
> 
> About two months after I bought the EV, I was driving down a stretch
> of interstate...flat...straight...boring as hell. I had the Stones on
> the stereo.....my mind began to drift. The sun started comming in through
> the driver's door, and the cab was warming up. Instinctively I reached
> up to the ceiling to open up the vent....
> 
> For a brief moment I was in my 67 bus. That's how close in spirit
> the two vans are.

Maybe you had a flashback... I don't know.  How you can confuse being
in the EV with being in the noisier and having that special VW smell
'67 is beyond me. ;)  
> 
> Sorry Joel...I just had to vent...and uphold the honor of the EuroVan. ;-)
> 

I probably deserve more heat than Joel, but hey ... were talkin' VW eh?
-- 
Steven

P.S. Ric, if that EV is so good, how come we get more 'hot-n-heavy' 
stories about the '56 Bug.  ;)

Steven Johnson
sjohnson@pcocd2.intel.com
'91 VW Camper GL, '86 Nissan Sentra
Previously owned: '68 bug, '70 squareback, '74 Camper