Date:         Wed, 24 Aug 94 8:37:24 PDT
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@vanagon.com>
From:         David Schwarze <schwarze@io.nosc.mil>
Subject:      Re: Florida lemons

RGOLEN@umassd.edu writes:
> 
> Don't knock'em 'till you've tried em...EuroVans that is...Oh shit...
> Here we go again another potential EuroVan vs "real VW" "discussion".

Yep.  I'll try not to get too involved...

> Dave, if you really want to be a "purist" then VW should have stayed
> "air cooled" with its vans....but instead the watercooled flat
> four (IMHO) is a poor imitation of a Subaru engine. It was nothing
> more than a stop-gap measure. 

Maybe.  I don't see why they had to make it watercooled in the first place.

> You suggest putting a regular 4 mounted flat in the back as a solution..
> that is no real solution...you will have to deal with a dry sump, and
> all that plumbing, which I may add is a pain in the ass to deal with on
> a Vanagon, to the front radiator. Why do you think the failure rate
> of waterpumps on Vanagons is so high? Bad design...Nope..its the
> pump having to push all that water so far forward that kills them
> off.

I think it's bad design.  There's no reason why the pump can't push water
16 feet.  If my previous selection was unacceptable, try this one:  Why
didn't they just tack on two more cylinders to the air-cooled 4?  
Make it something like a toned-down Porsche flat six?  Don't tell me that
wouldn't have made you happy.  :)

> There was no other way for VW to go with its vans...remember its
> primary market for Typ2s is Germany and Europe at this point...it
> designed the T4 for those markets, not the US. If you have read
> any lit from Germany or Europe, you will see that it is the
> safest, best constructed, and best selling van over there. They
> probably sell more T4s there in a month than they did here in
> one year.

Ummm... that's cause the Eurovan is the only minivan made in Europe.  At
least the only mainstream one.  Of course it's going to sell well there.
Especially well because the American minivans are too suited to American
automotive styles (i.e. Automatics, soft sprung, big, lazy V-6's, bad 
ergonomics).  What's more, I would venture to bet that the Eurovan would
have sold just as well over there if it had still been rear-engined.
VW vans have *always* sold very well in Germany and Europe.

> One last thing...my sources for my info....no gut feelings...
> no wishful thinking...for sales figures/best construction, etc..
> "Auto Motor und Sport" - April 94. Safety - Gute Fahrt - April 91.

Both German publications.  I don't think the American mags share their
enthusiasm about the Eurovan.

> As to "gut feelings", I have owned beetles (still drive a 56),
> T1 Typ 2s, Rabbits, Golfs (still drive an 86 GTI with 206k miles),
> and the EuroVan, so I have a pretty good set of bench marks and
> experiences to base MY opinion. The EuroVan is every bit as good,
> and in many ways better than its predecessors, it is every bit
> a VW as any other VW model. The EuroVan is to earlier Typ 2s
> as the Rabbit/Golf is to the Beetle. Both generations are
> so different...but so much the same. If you have to ask me
> to explain that concept...then you don't get it, it should
> be self explanitory.

I'm not trying to say it's not a Volkswagen, or that it's not good. 
I would agree that the Eurovan to the earlier type II's as the Rabbit
is to the Beetle.  That doesn't mean that it is not a very DIFFERENT
vehicle.  I don't think that anyone would say that a rabbit is a newer
version of the beetle.  The rabbit was an entirely new vehicle, as is the
Eurovan.

> Oh well...I do appologize if you think this defense of the
> EuroVan borders on a flame...but we went through this once
> before, and the EuroVan came out as an accepted member of the
> Typ 2 family...I just feel its my duty to defend its honor!

I wasn't trashing the Eurovan by saying it is not like the Vanagon.  My
mother has a Eurovan and I have a type II, and I think they are both
probably really good vehicles.  I was just saying that the Eurovan
broke the "engine in back driving rear wheels" trend that has been a type II
trademark for what, 40 years?  I don't want to be thought of as being a
Eurovan hater, cause I'm not!  :)

-David

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David Schwarze			'73 VW Safare Custom Camper (Da Boat)
SAIC Comsystems, San Diego	'73 Capri GT 2800 (Da Beast)
schwarze@nosc.mil		'87 Mustang Lx 5.0 (Da Bruiser?  Soon...)
=============================================================================