Date:         Tue, 01 Nov 94 23:11:49 CST
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@vanagon.com>
From:         "J. Walker" <JWALKER@ua1vm.ua.edu>
Subject:      Re: generators vs. camping (opinions and such)

On Tue, 1 Nov 94 21:20:43 CST John Ritchie said:
>In my opinion, the outdoors is a place to escape from the
>population-induced pressures of the city, the rubbing-together of
>humans.  I'm not an anti-social person and enjoy living in and
>vacationing in cities, but I also enjoy the solitude and peace of the
>outdoors.  I greatly resent things that intrude on that sense of peace,
>things that remind me of the presence of all the humans around me.
>Things like power generators, dirt bikes, loud parties and, on a
>star-gazing night, the bright glare of somebody's lantern.

which is as it should be.  but there are varying degrees of irritation for
different people, and there should be different places for these people.
there should be wilderness areas ... where NO 'conveniences' are allowed
... and other areas where such paraphenalia are allowed. cause not everyone
likes the same flavor ice cream. :)

the problem is always 'why can't they go somewhere else?'. and i guess one
of these days, that's what it'll be: one camping area for the group who
don't mind generators and such ... and another area far far away for the
folks who just want to listen to the bears and birds fart. :)

>woods his reasons are, in essence, selfish ones.  Selfish in the sense
>that his considerations for the comfort of his family outweigh his
>considerations for the people around him.  I quote:

but we ALL do this, every day, in every way.  Human beings do EVERYTHING for
selfish reasons. hell, every animal does. Survival IS selfish. Having
children IS selfish.  that's normal.

it's when you fail to allow others that same degree of selfishness that it
becomes a problem in our society. cause in order to be a social animal, we
have to give up small degrees of selfish behavior ... and allow the GROUP
to have its way, rather than always getting our way. in numbers, there is
safety and a greater chance of survival.

even herds of birds do this: in a flock, there is less chance of any single
bird being killed by predators. so more safety. but less chance of getting
as much food (cause all the others are around you). so less of one thing
gives you more of another. same thing with any herd animals. and even with
packs of predators: more predators, more chances of getting to eat tonight.
but less chance of getting to mate (unless you are the alpha male or female).

>Although I can respect these motives I think this is an illustration of
>one of the key problems in the woods, and in our society today; that of
>lack of consideration of how our actions impinge on others and lack of
>respect for other peoples' privacy and feelings.  Too many people are
>too wrapped up in what they're doing or are too inconsiderate in general

almost right. Too many people. period. too much population pressure. too
much, too many, pushing, shoving, running over people to get part of the
'dream'. me first! instead of me too!  for those of us who have lived in
small rural america and moved to the big city, and have seen the same thing
in australia and asia ... well, i don't know what to do about it. except
maybe move back to the small towns. it's not the country, it's not the
language, it's the number of people. if you've ever worked on a farm and
seen what happens when you get too many cows or chickens cooped up together
... it's the same thing with humans.

>noise, you could just go over the next ridge and be away from them.
>Now, you go over the next ridge and there are 12 more people there.

yup. now you have to go THREE ridges over. and still there might be people
over there.

>"the outdoor experience."  The question was raised: at what point does
>the wilderness experience lose its wilderness aspect?  Is it when you
>can no longer find a place where you can't see/hear other people within
>5 miles? 1 mile? 100 yards?

aha! but that's part of the problem: to some people, seeing Yellowstone from
a Winnebago IS wilderness ... cause all they have ever known is downtown LA.
i'm reminded of how we southern boys laughed at the yankee draftees ...
cause we had grown up handling firearms all our lives, and here were these
guys from brooklyn and chicago who had literally no idea which end of a rifle
to point at someone. but it wasn't their 'fault' ... it wasn't anybody's
'fault'. it's just the difference in people's lives.

>if I offended anybody accidentally but I really feel strongly that, if
>we're going to preserve any sense of wilderness as our populations
>increase we're going to have to learn to be more sensitive to other
>people and "act smaller" when in the woods.

i agree. but i'm afraid i don't see it happening. i'm too much of an old
cynic to believe that anyone who gets elected to political office will care
about saving any wilderness when there is big political money to be made
by clear-cutting the forests of the northwest. it's a problem as old as
mankind itself: money talks. what will have to happen is that the next
generation will have to realize that people who make it to the top (like
Bill Gates) CAN make a big difference ... IF they want to. but it seems that
none of the money folks want to make a difference. so the only solution left
is lots of folks with a little money each. and that, my friends, is very
very very hard to achieve or control. i'm not saying it's impossible. but it
is very difficult.

now ... i hope nobody was offended by pete's story about the generator, or
john's love of the quiet wilderness, or my rambling about whatever it was
i'm rambling on about. but it really DOES have something to do with vw's and
buses: WE are the lots of folks with a little money each. instead of trees
(or rather, in addition to), we like vw buses. we want to save vw buses.
at times, it would seem that vw and vw dealers don't really care about our
cars or us. so we have to help each other. and it's very hard to achieve and
control ... and each of us has other facets of life that we enjoy: music,
camping, photography, painting, whips and chains, water-skiiing, scuba diving,
flying airplanes, watching Ric wear frilly underwear, stuff like that.

but we are all different personalities, come together on ONE small facet of
life: vw buses. so we shouldn't expect each other to agree on how to cook
an egg, or whether to eat meat on wednesdays (or at all). if we were all the
same, it would be a very dull world, indeed.

and i have absolutely no idea what the hell i started out to say with all
this. hopefully, y'all will understand whatever it was i meant to say ...
even if i didn't say it exactly right. or something. :)

joel
<sheesh! is it past my bedtime already?>