Vanagon EuroVan
Previous messageNext messagePrevious in topicNext in topicPrevious by same authorNext by same authorPrevious page (July 1995)Back to main VANAGON pageJoin or leave VANAGON (or change settings)ReplyPost a new messageSearchProportional fontNon-proportional font
Date:         Wed, 12 Jul 95 14:03:46 -0400
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@vanagon.com>
From:         Bart Wineland <bwinelan@alleg.edu>
Subject:      latest on  Re: vanagon AC (long)

Sorry so long but addresses r-12 issue pretty well. I pulled this from another list so can't answer for the content. The outlook for a substitute for R-12 that doesn't involve a expensive retrofit looks promising.

Bart

Here is the second version of the A/C FAQ. Please forward as appropriate, and send me any suggestions/comments.

--steve sravet@bangate.compaq.com

0.........1.........2.........3.........4.........5.........6.........7. ... Frequently asked questions about R-12 (Freon (c)) and alternatives.

This is my first attempt at a FAQ, so bear with me. You can reach me via email at sravet@bangate.compaq.com if you want to comment, make suggestions, etc.

Parts of this document are short, because I don't necessarily know the whole answer to the question. If you know something about one of these questions, feel free to email me with the information. If you have suggestions for additional questions and answers, feel free to email me.

I will acknowledge up front that I view a lot of environmental regulation as extremely suspicious. That viewpoint probably comes across in this document. The point is, I welcome any comments about this document, pro or con, as long as they contain factual data. Eco- nazis and actors/actresses who are long on opinion but short on fact need not bother writing to me.

DISCLAIMER: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Please note that while I have tried to make this document as correct as possible, there are inevetably going to be some errors. Something that is legal today may very well not be legal tomorrow, and you are urged to call the EPA and your state to verify the legality of any A/C service you wish to perform. Some states have their own restrictions in addition to the EPA guidelines. The EPA has an ozone hotline (run at a profit by a private company, of course.) It can be reached at 1-800- 296-1996. Sometimes they have the correct answers to questions.

This FAQ is a source of facts on R-12, and other alternatives for mobile A/C systems. It is not a tutorial on automotive A/C service. Fixing your car's A/C is no more difficult and no more dangerous than changing plugs, replacing a distributor, or any other type of service that people typically do themselves to save money. You do, however, need to have the proper tools and knowledge to work on A/C. There are many fine books out there on this subject.

These opinions herein are mine, and although they are widespread, they do not represent the opinions of anyone but myself. -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Table of Contents: 1) What is R-406a (aka GHG Refrigerant 12 substitute)? 2) What is HC-12a? 3) What is OZ-12? 4) What is R-134a? 5) How does R-12 hurt the ozone layer? 6) What about flammability? 7) Who is MACS? 8) How do the EPA regulations affect the A/C DIYer? 9) Numbers and addresses of the players. 10) Where can I get more infomation about this stuff?

Appendix A: People

----------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) What is R-406a? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- R-406a, formerly known as GHG R-12 substitute, is an ozone friendlier, R-12 compatible drop in refrigerant. It was invented by George Goble, who has a couple of patents on it. (ghg@ecn.purdue.edu, http://ghg.ecn.purdue.edu/). It is a three part blend of 55% HCFC-22, 41% HCFC-142b, and 4% isobutane. It is compatible with the rubber seals and hoses, and with the mineral oils used in R-12 systems. In addition, it offers somewhat better performance than R-12. It is 95% less ozone depleting than R-12. (ODP of .05 vs. 1.0 for R-12).

R-406a was initially tested in August 1990 in three cars. By 1992, approximately 500 vehicles had this blend installed. Out of 500 cars, only one car suffered A/C system failure. Analysis showed that the Teflon piston rings had failed, which is a common failure mode for this particular compressor according to local mechanics.

R-406A may leak faster through "nitrile rubber" hoses, mostly found in foreign made cars, and port-of-entry add-on A/C systems. Most American cars, have used "barrier hoses" for years, and these work fine. All replacement hoses are of the "barrier" type now.

R-406a yielded a 4 to 13 degree F decrease in discharge air temperature over that of CFC-12 at ambient temperatures over 80 degrees F. Compressor discharge temperatures were also approximately 20 degrees F higher than comparable R-12 systems, but still low enough to prevent refrigerant or oil breakdown.

R-406a has been tested with CRYO-SILANE, a commercial A/C system sealant and was determined to be compatible. Cryo-Silane is effective at stopping leaks that fall into the three week to one year leak rate.

Since R-406a is a blend, a system should be evacuated before filling. The three components have different leak rates, so topping off would result in altered concentrations. In addition, R-406A (and all other blends) have to be charged as a LIQUID (yes, on the low-side, but bottle upside-down) because each substance has a different vapor pressure (thus different rate of release as a gas). But, you have to be careful to monitor the suction pressure and ensure that the flow from the can is gradual. If it gets above a certain point, you'll be sucking liquid and the pump will fail.

This mix does contain Iso-butane, which is required to disolve the oil, but has been shown to be non-flammable in this blend, or weakly flammable in the worst case scenario. It has been classified as A1/A2 by ASHREA. Topping off could result in higher concentrations of isobutane, which is why this practice should be avoided. Several things should be noted here, namely that _any_ refrigerant can be "flammable" if it contains dissolved oil and a rapid release occurs. The oil atomizes and can be ignited. In addition, any refrigerant that contains hydrogen atoms (HCFCs) can be flammable when mixed with large amounts of air under pressure. This includes R-406a, the EPA approved R-134a, R- 22, etc. For this reason these refrigerants should not be mixed with air under pressure.

This mixture is EPA approved as a drop in replacement for R-12 in a variety of applications except automotive uses, and is approved for automobiles in Canada and lots of other countries. The manufacturer has not sought EPA certification for mobile applications in the US, which is why it is not approved. See the question about EPA regulations for more details. You do have to have a federal license to purchase R-406a, see the question about MACS for details.

IT IS CURRENTLY ILLEGAL TO PUT R-406a INTO ANY MOBILE A/C UNIT.

R-406a can be purchased from: Monroe Air Tech Bloomington, IN 1-800-424-3836.

----------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) What is HC-12a? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- HC-12a is manufactured by OZ Technology as a direct R-12 and R-134a replacement requiring no retrofit. It is a second generation product that replaces OZ-12. It is a patented hydrocarbon blend of unknown composition. It has 0 ODP and 8 GWP. It is compatible with any system containing R-12 or R-134a, including both mineral and synthetic oils, rubbers, metals, etc. It is up to 30% more efficient than R-12, which reduces load on the compressor and engine. Since it is a hydrocarbon blend, it is flammable. It has had a strong odor added to help identify leaking systems. DOE studies have shown that the risk of HC based refrigerants in mobile A/C units is negligible.

The EPA banned it for use in mobile applications on June 2, 1995. The ban will take effect 30 days after publication in the Federal Register, which should be mid-July 1995. Approval was removed due to flammability concerns. OZ technology has not done a risk assessment to determine if there is a flammability hazard.

IT IS CURRENTLY LEGAL TO PUT HC-12a INTO A MOBILE A/C UNIT, BUT IT WILL BE ILLEGAL TO DO THIS BY MID JULY 1995

----------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) What is OZ-12? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- OZ-12 was the first-generation R-12 replacement from OZ Technology. It is a hydrocarbon based refrigerant of unknown composition. It has been supplanted by HC-12a. It has been banned by the EPA for over a year due to flammability concerns.

IT IS CURRENTLY ILLEGAL TO PUT OZ-12 INTO ANY MOBILE A/C UNIT.

----------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) What is R-134a? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- R-134a is the current replacement for R-12. Most new cars manufactured now have R-134a in their air conditioning systems, and all manufacturers plan to move solely to R-134a by the end of 1995. It is a retrofit rather than a replacement, as it requires some parts to be replaced before it can be placed into an R-12 system. R-134a is not compatible with the mineral oil used in R-12 systems, and uses a PAG (polyalkylene glycol) based oil instead. This oil is not compatible with the rubbers typically used in an R-12 system, so at a minimum all O rings and hoses must be replaced. In addition, R-134a has 20-30% less cooling capacity than R-12. Newer systems are designed with this in mind, but older systems just will not provide as much cooling capacity if they are converted to R-134a. In addition, R-134a will react with the aluminum chlorides left behind fron R-12 and form acids that eat at system components. These chlorides form on the surface of aluminum parts that are exposed to R-12.

There are other problems with the oils used with R-134a. PAG oils may be destroyed from residual aluminum chloride coating the insides of pipes, etc, left over from when R-12 was in the system. These chlorides cannot be flushed out and are not present in "new cars". "Ester oils" (POE) are more tolerant of the chlorides, but are still 10X more moisture sensitive than R-12 mineral oil. PAG oil is about 100X more moisture sensitive. Ester oils have less lubricity than PAG oils.

R-134a is flammable when mixed with air and placed under pressure, as are all HFC refrigerants, including R-406a, R-22, and others. PAG based oils are skin irritants and require impervious gloves to be worn when handling. R-134a can irritate the eyes, nose and throat. Exposure to R-134a has been shown to cause benign tumors in lab animals, under the non-realistic conditions of 5% atmospheric content over 2 years. Contrast this with R-12 and mineral oil, which are known safe under all conditions.

IT IS CURENTLY LEGAL TO PUT R-134a INTO A MOBILE A/C SYSTEM

----------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) How does R-12 hurt the ozone layer? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The ozone layer is formed in the stratosphere when ultraviolet light breaks apart normal oxygen molecules (O2) and causes them to form ozone molecules (O3). In this process, the ultraviolet light is absorbed, which is why the ozone layer helps protect the earth from ultraviolet light. Exposure to ultraviolet light increases the chance of aquiring skin cancer, and is thought to depress the immune system. So ozone in the upper atmosphere is a good thing.

Current theory holds that chloro-fluoro-carbons (CFCs), once released, work their way into the upper atmosphere (stratosphere), where the chlorine atom is stripped from the CFC by the ultraviolet light. The chlorine atom then reacts with the naturally occurring ozone and changes it into normal oxygen. The chlorine is a catalyst in this reaction, which means that it enables the reaction to take place, without actually being used in the reaction. The chemical reactions that form and deplete the ozone are:

Ozone forming (good) (1) O2 + UV -> O + O (UV is ultraviolet light) (2) O2 + O -> O3

Ozone depleting (bad) (2) Cl + O3 -> ClO + O2 (3) ClO + O -> O2 + Cl


Back to: Top of message | Previous page | Main VANAGON page

Please note - During the past 17 years of operation, several gigabytes of Vanagon mail messages have been archived. Searching the entire collection will take up to five minutes to complete. Please be patient!


Return to the archives @ gerry.vanagon.com


The vanagon mailing list archives are copyright (c) 1994-2011, and may not be reproduced without the express written permission of the list administrators. Posting messages to this mailing list grants a license to the mailing list administrators to reproduce the message in a compilation, either printed or electronic. All compilations will be not-for-profit, with any excess proceeds going to the Vanagon mailing list.

Any profits from list compilations go exclusively towards the management and operation of the Vanagon mailing list and vanagon mailing list web site.