Date:         Wed, 8 Nov 1995 23:36:05 -0500
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@vanagon.com>
From:         drew@interport.net (Derek Drew)
Subject:      Raising A Vanagon Syncro

Excellent post, John. You have really considered the issues right up to the
angle on the CV joints. Impressive.

I thought of you when I convinced my friend to join both the Vanagon list
and the Corrodo list yesterday (JSCohen@aol.com).

(This discussion is valuable enough I am ccing to the list.)

Anyway...

>Derek,
>
>I had this idea back when I owned my Quantum Syncro, to gain some
>added height, you might consider, I've not thought about it in
>Vanagon context strictly though.    First of all you are entirely
>correct raising the Van must certainly be done by raising the spring
>seats, this is how any suspension is adjusted.  Now I see a couple
>good methods for upping a vanagon.
>
>1 get stock raised parts (pricey?)

Probably a $10,000 proposition, maybe more, then a spare part problem if
anything breaks. Control arms, axels, front differential, wheelbearing
housing, CV joints, etc. etc.--all different on the 16" Vanagon!

On the other hand, if it could be accomplished simply by ordering the 16"
shocks then we're down to $500 ballpark for two shocks, possibly as much as
half that. In Germany, since this is a Boge part, we're talking about
basically an aftermarket part. Boge shocks here in the USA I recall were not
much over $100 each at one point for the 14" application.

I *must* find some German Transporter/Caravelle fanatic with a 16" shock to
find out the dimensions of his shock. As an alternative, I could get all the
syncro owners on the list to pony up $25 each research fee to order one of
these 16" shocks from Germany so we can get a look at it. If it does the
job, they we can all switch. It is a Boge part, but Boge USA says they won't
import any here. Still, I know a German over there with a VAG dealership who
ships me stuff via government surface mail (avoids customs) and takes my
personal checks. Any of our UK members could also order the thing and send
it over or that cool guy Brian in the Netherlands who posted about 2.5 litre
parts a couple of days ago.

>2. How about fully threaded body shock/spring assemblies custom fit?
>This really isn't as exotic as it sounds.  For Formula SAE cars at
>the university and the Mini Baja cars we always use these.  The spring
>seat is threaded as is the lower body of the shock, allowing any ride
>height to be dialed in.  Neuspeed sells these for performance water

wow

>pumpers with the other direction (lowering) in mind, for like $1000
>the set of 4, I'm sure from experience you could do the same on
>a custom set for the Vanagon, plus you could also pick your spring
>and dampening rates and adjustable damper shocks are a very good
>possibility as well.  This would give you a suspension you could
>even in an hour or 2 switch from highway to offroad to keep the cg
>down in regular on road travel if you wanted.  nothing more than a floor
>jack and spring compressor to adjust.  I truly figure this option would
>not be significantly more expensive than the stock 16" parts plus would
>give you the ultimate in full adjustability (I will look into quality
>manufacturers if you want).  Plus these are made for off road industrial

I am sold except skeptical anything exists that will fit into the Vanagon
without huge outpourings of brainpower/customization on my part. Perhaps it
would clarify for you that the syncro setup on Vanagon: 
the front shocks have a flange welded on half way down on which the springs
sit. The bottom of the shocks terminate in a classical rubber round shock
mount. This mount is bolted into the lower control arm and held there by a
giant bolt. I don't see how this admits of any threaded arrangement. Still
intrigued though.

>abuse, fully rebuildable, etc. etc.  BTW if you have an extra set
>of springs about, for a couple months I'll still be at the university
>and can under lab conditions, measure the spring rates exacctly and
>continuously over their entire range.  This knowledge could be valuable.

I do indeed have extra springs and will take you up on your offer in a
second. Where should I send them? Look over my tool list so we can pick out
a thank-you present to hold back before it gets sold.

>3.  Real cheap option, put those rubber spring seat extenders under
>the springs for an immediate 1.5" lift, cost is merely $20 or so.

I've already done this on the rear shocks, but the lower mounting slab for
the front springs is irregularly shaped (molded to the shape of the
springs), has a big step in it, and would therefore destroy any of those
rubber things I would put in there. 1.5" is all I want to raise the front,
for now anyway. 

The rubber spring seat extenders they sell in auto parts stores have a split
half way around their circumfrence. I hired a shop to install these already
and the way the mounting is irregular, the split allowed the spring to force
the rubber out whenever weight was put on the vehicle. In other words, I
need an irregularly shaped, perfactly formed piece of solid metal with a
hole in the middle for the shock to go through. Sort of like a hollowed-out,
solid Duncan doughnut that's been eaten concave on one side and left convex
on the other.

>a poor option though as without changing the shock you lose that in
>suspension travel and will beat the crap out of the seals and probably
>kill the shock in no time.

Right, I loose suspension travel and beat the crap out of the shock's upper
bump stop whenever the wheels become unladen as I fly over obstacles. Still,
an option I would adopt nonetheless if I could figure out how. This option
has the attraction of making sure the CV joints are not overstressed to a
new angle because the full-extension bump stop of the shock prevents the
angle from going more than stock.

>4.  This is my personal idea, how about having a machine shop make a
>few custom adapters out of billet aluminum or stainless that lower
>the mounting point of the upper mount?  Now this was just forming in my

I have to get in there and design this. I have to study the way the upper
part of the shock mounts to decide how it should be done.

>mind when I was forced to sell the quantum but basically I figured,
>just make an adapter that carries the strut bearings a couple of inches
>lower and secures to where they mounted.  I was having the shop make
>some when the tranny started howling and I sold her so never tried it
>out.  On the Quantum this was an excellent easy possibility due to
>the way the strut bearings attach, frankly I don't recall on the
>Vanagon, it could be easier or a moot point.  Now the glory here is you
>keep you stock compnents, blow a couple of $hundred for machining or

I'm not yet used to finding shops which can fabricate chunks of metal to my
specifications. Willing and able, just not experienced at this--type of
metal to specify, knowing what is possible in the way of custom shaping, etc.

I had thought too of raising the van by raising the lower mounting point of
the shock. I had in mind to scrape together some parts that would bolt in to
where the front shocks bolt into the lower control arm now, and then to come
up and serve as a new attachment point for the bottom of the shocks. But the
load forces in this area are incredible, and if my new mouting thing were to
fail the van would might go out of control and crash. So I am intimidated
trying to engineer or fabricate a 99.99% safe method of doing this.

>less, and importantly lose NO suspension travel, but conversely you
>don't gain any either.  You simply gain ground clearance, but no travel
>a reasonable choice IMHO.  You just modify the suspension by moving the
>upper seat down instead of the lower seat up.

I am attracted to this option. To me, it doesn't matte whether you raise the
lower mounting point of the shock or lower the upper mounting point of the
spring. It is cleaner to riase the lower mounting point since there is only
one job to do. Otherwise, if you lower the upper mounting point you have
probably to consider lowering *both* the mounting for the shock *and* the
mounting for the spring so there is perhaps more work to do.

>NOW for an important consideration though any way you raise it.  DID VW
>CHANGE THE DRIVESHAFT LENGHT WITH THE RAISED SUPENSION???  Find this
>out it might be critical.  If you raise the van, no matter how, the
>suspension is drooped lower relative to the drivetrain, hence the
>driveshafts are "stretched" further at full droop.  THIS CAN EAT CV'S 
>an unhappy circumstance financially I'm sure on a Syncro.  Frankly I
>don't know how much of a problem this will be, but I'd hate to go by
>trial and error.  However if VW used the same shafts I'd say there is
>sufficient extension available.  Also, the angle the CV's may operate
>could be a consideration, stock is only 25 deg or so I think, off road
>places modify them for more.

Well, there is one negative here and one positive. The positive is that I
have measured the difference between the ride heigth of my syncro and a
standard non-camper, non-GL, empty syncro that doesn't have winch, water,
supplies, etc. inside and I find that I have lost fully 1.5" of ride height
simply by the extra weight that a Westy with full camper gear adds. It
stands to reason that if I raise the van back 1.5" of ride height, then I
won't be exceeding the factory's intended CV joint angle so long as I am on
the ground. 

When I am off the ground (like going fast over a speed bump in a parking
lot) then the wheels will extend and for a moment I will exceed the angle
that the CV joint was intended to operate at. I judge this to be acceptable. 

Now for the bad news. The 16" version of the Vanagon does indeed come with
different drive shafts. I am not clear on whether this is to accomodate the
overside CV joints the 16"er has or whether it is so that the driveshaft can
be longer, but I for some reason believe the latter. Given that, it suggests
that the length of the driveshaft is a real issue here, and too much raising
of the van could create a problem.

Still, for the aforementioned reason--that all I am doing is restoring a
laden westy to the ride height of an unladen bare-bones Vanagon Syncro--I
think I am inclined to proceed with the 1.5" lift on the front (I've been
driving around for a year now with a 1.5" lift on the rear with no problems
except that I look silly, sort of like a dragster with the front down and
the back up). Besides, I still have a year and a half left on my warranty so
I can afford to break thngs (just got a brand new $400 CV joint under
warranty; plan to get a new $600 drive shaft in a few weeks).

>Anyway, a bunch of thoughts.  If interested in throwing any of them
>about email me.
>
>John
>ja@coe.wvu.edu

Good stuff, John.
___________________________________
Derek Drew
drew@interport.net (main address for e-mail)
derekdrew@aol.com (alternate/backup address, checked infrequently)