Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 21:20:33 -0400
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@vanagon.com>
From: Cetin Seren <cseren@fore.com>
Subject: Re: Was EV slap, Now electricals, HELP!
Sorry to hear you're having so much trouble. It seems that the dealer
is fixing the symptoms but not really fixing the cause.
>From what you're experiencing, the obvious cause is a bad electrical
connection. I think it is an intermittent open circuit rather than a
short, since you have not blown any fuses (look for scorched wires around
the engine also to solidify this assumption, a short could cause scorched
wires).
The clock resetting is a very indicative symptom, and the (insert your favorite
word that describes your dealer here) dealer mechanic is either a complete
incompetent fool, or he knows what kind of stuff he is into, so he is choosing
to dazzle you with BS rather than spending the time to diagnose the problem.
One path to choose might be to write to VW of A stating that their electrical
system is a safety hazard (ABS), and that they will be responsible if any
harm is caused by the failures again. Another path is to see what _you_ can
do about it. A third may be to do both.
First thing to do:
Ask the dealer how to disengage ABS, see if it is possible. Obviously
the ABS is also getting confused by the intermittent on/off electrical
power. I do not have ABS, so I cannot help you about whether it is possible
or not. If possible, disengage ABS, the EV brakes just fine without ABS,
and keep it that way until this problem is solved.
Now to the diagnostics:
You're looking for a bad connection, that causes problems. The clock resetting
is quite basic -- the clock is attached to the battery at all times. If it is
resetting, it is doing so either because some electrical connection somewhere
is loose, or there is a short somewhere. Since you do not mention any blown
fuses, let us assume that short is a lesser possibility.
First rule of diagnostics: see how lucky you are. Have someone sit
in the driver's seat, watch the clock. With the engine turned off,
jiggle every connection you find. If the clock resets, you lucked out
(maybe, there may actually be more than one bad connection).
The rest of the diagnostics is a little bit more involved, so if you are
electronically challenged, get help. One method is to buy a 12V car clock,
the kind that attaches to the car battery. Most clocks these days have their
own batteries, so finding one of these may be a problem. Ground the ground
wire, get a _very_ long wire for the positive. Find a way to pass the wire from
the passenger compartment to the engine compartment. First, start by attaching
this wire to the positive battery terminal. Set the clock, drive around.
If the clock resets, you have a _big_ short somewhere in this system. If not,
move the positive wire from the new clock downstream in the electrical system,
in stages. A good second spot could be the Alternator output terminal. You
have
to make sure your wire does not get close pulleys, moving parts, etc... In this
fashion, you can eventually get the new clock to reset also, which will tell you
that the problem is between where the wire is currently attached and where
it was
attached before. My suspicion is that you will not have to go very far; clock
resetting is indicative that there is a problem way upstream in the
elctrical system.
Also, if your dash clock resets and the new clock does not, it is time to
re-attach
the wire one step down the electrical system, so you do not have to keep driving
forever at one stage.
Good luck, let us know what happens...
Cetin
At 12:24 AM 7/30/96 -0500, you wrote:
>While I have to agree with Jeff that the EV is a terrific van, I've still
>got this funky electrical problem with my van that I've mentioned several
>times before. I either need to solve this problem, or give up on the van
>and buy a Saturn (for the hot dogs, mainly).
>
>Up until about March, this problem amounted only to my clock resetting
>itself sporadically (or so I thought) without explanation. In march, the
>fuel pump failed, but the dealer had replaced it less than 1 year before,
>so they didn't charge me even though the electrical system is out of basic
>warranty. Anyway, since they replaced it, I haven't complained a whole
>bunch.
>
>Since then, however, I've noticed a few things about the clock resetting
>that may lead to clues. The problem didn't occur during most long spells
>of warm, dry weather. In fact, it definitely DID happen when it either got
>cold (for southern CA that has to be in the low 50's F), or, in particular,
>when it rained. Still, I couldn't get the dealer to care much about my
>clock resetting. Well, the van had been running pretty flawlessly for
>about the last year and a half (minus the fuel pump failure), till we got
>ready to go on vacation in Utah. The day before we left, it started and
>idled rough, and missed badly at low rpms. I was so concerned about it
>that i didn't notice when the clock reset itself again somewhere along the
>line. It ran better when it warmed up, but still missed at low rpms
>somewhat. Drove about 20 miles, stopped to pick up my wife's car from the
>shop for about 10 minutes, then got back in. Started up fine and ran fine.
>No clue to what happened. Went to Utah, and though it didn't result in
>any serious problems, here's what happened:
>
>One night we had a hell of a thunderstorm. Next morning, we took the van
>to dump the trash. When I started it up, it struggled to get running
>briefly, then quit. This has happened before, and it usually starts fine
>on the second try. but this time I was looking at the clock when I
>restarted it. At the very instant I turned the ignition back on after it
>quit the first time, the clock changed from 8:32 (or about that) to 1:00.
>I wish I'd noticed before when the reset occurred. I wonder if it happened
>that way all the time? I'll have to watch. I always thought happened
>during the night while the van sat. I reset the clock to the correct time
>and got on my way. Anyway, that wasn't the end of this story... went down
>the street toward the dumpster. I had to cross a big mud puddle on the way
>out of the yard (not deep, and I went slowly so I didn't spash it around),
>so initially the tires were pretty muddy, but I could hear when all the mud
>stopped hitting the fender wells about 100 feet down the road. About
>another hundred yards we came to a T intersection with another car crossing
>in front of us. I hit the brakes, and for about 1 or 2 seconds, NOTHING
>happened, then it took hold and stopped. I wasn't going but about 20 mph
>when this occurred, so it didn't get dangerous, but my wife did say "aren't
>you going to stop?" At first I just figured that the tires still had
>enough mud to cause us to slide a bit, or the ABS was preventing the brakes
>from locking, but now i don't think so. Why wouldn't the front brakes have
>stopped? We went on to the dumpster, about a half mile further down the
>road and tossed the trash. When we stopped, I noticed the clock had reset
>to 1:00 again, some time before I'd shut it off. Weird, huh?
>
>About the brakes: I've never had a car with ABS before, and figured there
>wasn't anything wrong with them when many times I first used the brakes in
>the morning, even when using them very lighly, the rear brakes would
>initially grab. After that, they're fine. Is this something alarming?
>
>More brakes: Also, during the spring of 95, when I had the horrendous
>problems I described on the list several months ago, including what turned
>out to be an open circuit in the battery, I had a scary experience with the
>brakes. The car had died completely at a four-way stop sign about 12 miles
>from Bakersfield. No idiot lights, nothing. Completely dead. So, to get
>it out of the intersection, I pushed it backwards off to the shoulder.
>There was just enough camber to the road that it didn't take much of a push
>to get it moving so that I could get in and steer it off the road. Was
>going about 5mph when I got off the road and onto the shoulder and
>leisurely applied the brakes. You know how power brakes feel when the
>engine's off and there is no boost? Hard, but they'll stop, right? Well,
>I got NOTHING. No brakes at all. Pedal went all the way to the floor with
>no resistance whatsoever. I had to use the emergency brake to stop the
>car. I told the dealers about it, but the other problems were so
>all-consuming that they either ignored it or simply didn't believe me. In
>any case, it never happened again, that is unless that's what happened in
>Utah.
>
>AT this point, I'm pretty pissed at the van again, primarily because all
>the putting off or overshadowing of the electrical trouble by the other
>problems has left me way beyond the electrical system warranty (van has
>about 43K on it now) with what could end up costing me quite a bit of money
>to get fixed (if it doesn't kill me first).
>
>Any of you folks out there with warranty adjustment experience that might
>have any suggestions as to my best approach to solving this problem? I'm
>thinking of writing a "polite" nasty letter to VWoA about it (will be my
>second for this van), because my last complaint to the dealer about the
>clock and fuel pump being a symptom of a more serious electrical problem
>resulted in "that would take a long time and cost you a lot of money to
>have us search out the cause" reply. Pisses me off.
>
>Wonder what a Saturn wagon with a V-6 and a 5-speed would cost me? I could
>put the 60 pickup back on the road and use it for my main hauler again...
>
>Poised to bail,
>-Tim Parker
>93 EV GL
>60 Singlecab
>29 Model A Ford.
>
>
>
>
Cetin Seren Direct: 412-635-3479
Software Development Engineer Main: 412-772-6600
Outbound Technology Group fax: 412-635-3350
FORE Systems, Inc. email: cseren@fore.com
Research Park, 5800 Corporate Drive URL: http://www.fore.com
Pittsburgh, PA 15237-5829
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