Date:         Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:47:10 -0500
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@vanagon.com>
From:         Derek Drew <drew@interport.net>
Subject:      Syncro Changing 14" to 16" Version

Copy of my note to Tobias. Syncro owners read on!:

Hi Tobias. Great to hear back from you.... My comments are at various places
in the text below. If your mail program or system decides this message is
too long, it will cut off the excess part of this message. In this case, my
SIG at the bottom declaring "90 Syncro Camper" will be absent, in which case
let me know, and I will send the second part separately.=20

At 06:48 PM 1/25/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi Derek,
>
>thank you for your Re-Mail. I=B4ll try to answer your questions and give=
 you
>some=20
>information about the 16" Syncro versions.
>
>But first let me give some comments on your mail:=20
>
>> http://www.anet-dfw.com/~ddes/vw/drew/index.html
>>=20
>> and=20
>>=20
>> http://www.sofcom.com.au/4WD/VW/VW.html
>>=20
>> In these you will see my van doing off-road driving.=20
>
>I visit this site and must congratulate you, great work. On Monday I get a
>new digital camera.
>I=B4ll try to send some pictures of my Syncro to you.

I'll be looking forward to this.=20

If you want me to, I can send you some Syncro off-road pictures by email, in
.gif and .jpeg format. Tell me if you want them. I will send you one picture
right now, which I have set in Windows 95 to be the background "desktop" for
the background of my computer screen. It is coming through as an attached
file called broch4.jpg.

>> I put those Web sites up so that somebody who knows about the 16" Syncros
>> would some day write to me from Europe. We do not have any 16" syncros
>> here, and I need to find out what the advantages would be if I were to
>purchase
>> the suspension from an old 16" syncro and then import the parts here to
>my
>> home here in New York and install them.=20
>>=20
>> Specifically, I want to know these things:=20
>
>> What is the largest size tire that will fit into a 16" syncro.=20
>(Sorry I don=B4t know the american size)
>tire size: 205R16 rim: 5 1/2 J X 16

Is this simply the factory tire size, or is this the largest tire size that
will fit? I suspect this is not the largest tire size that will fit.

>>What is the largest size tire that will fit into a 14" syncro.
>tire size: 205R14 rim: 5 1/2 J X 14

I know that this is not the largest tire size that will fit, as my tires are
equivalent to about 225R14 rim: 5 1/2 J x 14. (The actual size of my tires
is 27 x 8.50 R 14, BF Goodrich All Terrain Radial, an odd USA way of
specifying tires for light trucks.)

I wonder how *tall* these tires are. The tires I use now are 27 inches tall
(about 29cm), which is about 2 inches (5cm) taller than the tires that come
on the van from the factory. I noticed that the van has a little worse
acceleration with these bigger tires.

>> and what gear ratios should be used to match with these tires. Here in
>North America all Syncros
>> come with a gear ratio of 4.86, but I want to change mine to one of these
>that I saw in my German microfiche:
>> 37/6	6.17=20
>> 35/6	5.83
>> 38/7	5.43=20

The gear ratios can be changed to these values by purchasing different
factory "ring and pinion" gears.

>> What gear ratio do the 16" vans in Germany normally use?
>
>I don=B4t know this, but I contacted our club technician to tell you.

This would be very valuable information to me.
=20
>> Derek Drew
>> 487 Columbus Ave. #3R
>> New York, NY 10024
>> USA
>>=20
>> Please tell me how to join this club--how much DM to send and to
>whom--and
>> how to get all the back issues of your magazine/newsletter. I want to be
>> the first person in North America to change my suspension into a 16" van.
>
>I also contacted our club leader to send a sample of our last magazine with
>the post to your adress.

Excellent. Thank you. I look forward to this.

>> I would suggest that you MUST visit the site:=20
>>=20
>> http://halfdan.med.umn.edu:8853/misc/archives/vanagon.html
>>=20
>
>I didn=B4t had the time to look at, but I think I=B4ll visit it soon.

Be prepared for 100 megabytes of information on water-cooled Volkswagen=
 vans!

>Mailing list > listserv@lenti.med.umn.edu=20
>
>I did it a week ago, but I can=B4t handle that much of E-Mail because I=
 don=B4t
>have the time to read it all carefully.

If you have MAIL FILTERING it makes it much easier to subscribe. You tell
your mail filter (The mail program Eudora or Pegasus both have great mail
filters; I don't know about Microsoft Internet Mail, however) to send all
your VW van mail into a special mail box just for that subject so the mail
doesn't bother you or clutter up your normal "in" box. (The mail filter is
set to send mail to the VW van mail box if the TO: line contains
"vanagon@lenti.med.umn.edu", UNLESS the CC: line contains
"Tobias.Hobert@t-online.de" or if the CC: line contains
"vanagon@lenti.med.umn.edu" UNLESS the TO: line contains
"Tobias.Hobert@t-online.de". Then, you look at the mail only every two
weeks, arranging all the mail according to SUBJECT so it is easy to scan for
what interests you. You *delete 95% of the mail unread,* but read only the
material that interests you, such as where the subject is "Syncro..." Done
this way, the  whole process can be done in less than 15 minutes, more or
less, depending on how interesting the material is and depending on how much
responsibility you feel to do your real work instead and to provide for your
future, your wife, and your children, etc. (just kidding).
=20
On the other hand, if you just go to
http://halfdan.med.umn.edu:8853/misc/archives/vanagon.html and SEARCH the
ARCHIVES, then you can search on any subject, such as "viscous coupling" or
whatever subject you want to research.

>I thing you look at all the E-Mail on this sending list and so I have a
>request:=20
>Please can you send me the mail including syncro thems to my E-Mail adress?

I can easily do this but it can amount to quite a lot of mail. I will start
by sending you another 30 or so pieces of mail. If you like them and want
more, I will send more. Let me know. But you don't really need to do this.
All you need to do is search
http://halfdan.med.umn.edu:8853/misc/archives/vanagon.html on the text
string in the following line

syncro not syncrohead

The reason you want to exclude syncrohead (even though we like him) is that
he posts all the time and you don't want to be reading all his mail since a
lot of it doesn't apply to syncro.=20

>It would help me to get a perpective view about the syncro drivers in the
>world and
>I would have the time to answer them.
>
>I finally send a Mail with my adress to the mailing list and then I
>unsubscribe from the list.
>
>> Tell me, how many DM are those special Tristar wheelwell moldings?
>
>2 month ago I put a new colour on my crewcab. It=B4s now porsche cobalt=
 blue
>metalic.
>During this I have to change the platic covers on the wings in the rear.
>One of them cost
>DM 160,- incl. 15% tax. VW-Nr. 251 853 818 A. I think the front covers cost
>nearly the same.
>A complete set must be calculate with: ca. DM 700,- incl. tax.
>
>But know I want to tell you something about your big interest:=20
>
>Transforming a 14" Syncro to an 16" Syncro
>
>My Tristar was buildt, as every Syncro-Van, in Graz Austria by the company
>Steyr&Puch in an=20
>14" Version in 1989. I bought it in 1995 from a private person here in this
>region. But I had the=20
>same dream like you: It must be a 16" and it must be a Tristar, but this is
>even in Germany
>very rare. Nobody is able to say how many of this Tristar exist and to find
>a 16" Version is
>a lucky break. So I decided to change it. I contaced VW in Wolfsburg to
>give me an factory decontrol.=20
>The responsible point for this is the central costumer service. I inquired
>the adapt to 16" wheels.=20
>They disclaimed my plan of changing only the wheels and wanted me to change
>also the gearbox,=20
>the rear axis arm and all four driveshafts. For an complete transforming
>you have to change all this parts.=20
>All people I talked about meaned the same. In Germany it=B4s better to have
>an factory announcement for=20
>every change on your car. You must drive to the technical observation
>organisation every 2 Years and=20
>each time you change something on the car. They must give their OK to it
>and then you must go to
>the lokal traffic office to register it in your vehicle documents. Without
>this registration in your documents the=20
>police will take your car out of the trafic, if they notice it.

This sounds very complicated to change your car. In the USA we change our
cars any way we like and they never notice at inspection time. They only
notice if the headlight bulb doesn't work, or if the catalytic converter is
broken and the exhaust air is too dirty.

>But I thought there must be cheaper way to make a first step to an complete
>16=E9r. I found in the=20
>contact list of our club a person how have changed only the wheels. I
>phoned him and he said that=20
>he has no bad experience with the 16" wheels on a 14" Syncro. He had made a
>trip to North-Africa
>without any trouble. I decided to make the same: I called my tire-dealer
>and ordered a set of 5 rims
>and he sold me some unused secound-hand tires Michelin XM+S 244 205R16.
>
>We put it on together and have to contour the front and rear wings a lidle
>bit, but the Tristar platic covers
>on it conceal this.=20

This is an excellent piece of information for me, that I shouldn't worry
about trimming the wheelwells (wings as you call them), since I can hide the
damage with the Tristar plastic covers. There are no Tristar plastic covers
for sale in the USA or anywhere else in North America so when I buy some, I
have to buy *three* sets in case I need more at a later time. This means it
costs me DM 2.100,-- to get these (by calculating the value you give me
below) which slows down my purchasing schedule due to the expense.

>I drove to to the technical observation organisation
>and toled the assesor about my=20
>adapt. He said: "This car was also solled with 16" wheels from the factory
>and it=B4s no problem".=20
>I forgot one important point: You must modulate the ratio of the tachometer
>with a special gearbox, to
>get the right speed. With this changes it was no problem to get the OK and
>the inscription in my papers.
>
>After 2000 km I can say: It works. I had no problems yet, but you can
>notice that the gearbox is not the
>right one. I want to change it the next to the original 16" gearbox. I also
>wanted to build in a stronger clutch.

How much higher does your van sit off the ground than it did before? As I
mentioned above, I put on big 14" tires that are 2 inches taller than the
the original factory tires (27" rather than 25") so now my van sits 1"
higher off the ground. In cm, this means the factory 14" tires are about
63.5cm tall (approximately) while my tires now are about 69 cm tall
(approximately), a difference of about 5.5 cm. This change is OK with me and
I like it, but the van does not go up hills as fast as before, and sometimes
when driving through mud or fields full of rocks, I wish I had the special
gears I mentioned above:  37/6 yielding 6.17, 35/6 yielding 5.83, or 38/7
yielding 5.43. VAG in Wolfsburg wrote to me to say that I would have 10%
less power with these larger tires unless I change my gears to match them.
If I put on even bigger tires, as I plan to do, then I will really
definitely need to change my gearsets.

So, I think the main reason the factory gave you to change your gearboxes is
to get those special gear ratios I just mentioned. You can do that by
changing the entire gear boxes, as the factory says to do, or only the final
drive gearsets, as I plan to do, because of the probable lower expense.

As for changing the front axels, some of us in the USA suspect that the
reason the factory tells you to do this is because the 16" syncro rides
higher off the ground than the 14" syncro, and so there is a need for a
slightly longer axel between wheel and gearbox. If you do not change the
suspension pieces, then the 16" syncro will not sit any higher, and there
seems to be no need to buy different axels.

It is not clear to us exactly what makes the 16" syncro rides higher off the
ground than the 14" syncro, or whether it does at all. This is because our
microfiche shows that the springs for the 16" syncro are the same as the
springs for the 14" syncro. If the factory desired to raise the 16" syncro
further off the ground than the 14" syncro, the only way we can see for them
to have done this is by making a speical front shock absorber for the 16"
van, with a higher mounting place (flange) for the spring. We notice that
the 16" syncro has a different shock absorber than the 14" syncro (different
part numbers) and speculate that this is the primary means by which the
front of the vehicle is raised for the 16" version.=20

All of this implies one of several things:=20

1) The 16" van does not ride higher than the 14" van for any reason other
than difference in tire diameters. If this is true, then we need only change
our final drive gearsets to get the full benefit of the lifting that the 16"
van has over the 14" van.

2) The 16" van does ride higher than the 14" van, and the lifting can be
accomplished by changing to aftermarket (non factory) springs that cause the
van to ride higher up in the air, OR, in the front of the van, by buying the
special 16" shock absorber. BUT, by changing the shock absorbers too, the
four driveshafts might have to be changed because longer shock absorbers
allow greater distance between the gearbox and the wheels than normal.

>From everything I have investigated, I fail yet to see why the rear axis
arms need to be changed.=20

Nevertheless, it would seem that the best way to convert a van to 16" would
be to purchase a 16" van that had been in a fire or accident that destroyed
its usefulness as a vehicle. Then, one could remove the gearboxes,
driveshafts, and suspension pieces and move them over all in one piece.=20

Here in America, such a crashed van might cost only $2,000 (DM3,200?), much
cheaper than buying $12,000 worth of parts at the Volkswagen dealer.=20

So anyway, I have the idea to find a person in Germany interested in the 16"
vans to help me in this idea to which I am attached. (Ideally, I'd like to
do it in about 1 or 2 years from now). By that time, it will be easy to use
the Internet to find all the 16" vans available for sale, I am hoping.

You failed to mention anything about changing the front "control arms" as we
say in English (you call them axis arms?). I believe I noticed in the
microfiche that the front control arms were different in the 16" syncro as
well. I am not clear on whether they are different because they are more
heavy duty (stronger), or whether they MUST be changed to fit the 16" shock
absorbers. Also, I think I noticed that the tower which holds the front
wheels (wheel bearings) is different in the 16" syncro as opposed to the 14"
syncro. Perhaps here some lifting was accomplished--I don't know.
=20
>I hope this will bring some clarity in the discussion.=20
>
>You can change only the wheels and adapt the tachometer, to get a syncro
>higher.=20
>For a complete change you must change the following parts:
>-gearbox
>-both rear axis arm=20
>-all four driveshafts
>
>There is an third possiblility to lift it up:
>
>A VW dealer offers a set of 4 special springs and 4 special shock absorder.
>I phoned him and he said
>the effect is between 1 - 8cm deppending on the old springs. Price ca.DM
>3.500,-=20
>These parts are rally tested. If you are intresting I can make a contact
>for you.

Yes, this sounds like a great way to go and I'd like to do it. But for
certain personal reasons I want to hold off for about 9 months before going
this route. Also, I wonder if this lift requires the longer drive shafts of
the 16" Syncro, for the reasons I mention above. I would like to hear what
this dealer says about whether these parts require the longer driveshafts.

As for the 1 - 8 cm lift, depending on the old springs: A 1 cm lift is not
desirable whatsoever as it is so small. An 8 cm lift sounds like a very
desirable one. If the question is the condition of the old springs, then I
have some observations on this issue:=20

A normal empty non-caravelle, non-WEstfalia syncro weighs something like
3,800 lbs. (I don't know what this is in kilograms). But my van is always
full of expedition gear, supplies, water, camper equipment, etc. This means
that when I drive it, I usually weigh 5,500 lbs and sometimes even 6,000
lbs. (The maximum "gross vehicle weight" the van was designed for is only
5,500 lbs.)

What this means is that my van is 50% heavier, all the time, than an empty
synco such as yours. As a result, I have lost about 5 cm of ride height. I
am sending separate from this note a post I wrote titled "Ride Height
Comparison Derby" in which I discuss these issues. If you decide to measure
your ride height in order to compare it with my vehicle, as discussed in
this Ride Height Comparison Derby post, then you must remember to measure
from the wheelwell to the *metal* part of the wheelwell arch, not to the
plastic wheelwell Tristar moldings you have on your vehicle.=20

So, if my van is riding 5cm lower, and the special springs you mention can
achieve a raising of the van by 1 cm, I am assuming that by changing to
these special springs I can gain about 6cm of height, an idea that is very
attractive.

>I have a lot other adress of VW parts-dealer here in Germany. They have
>ready made kits for fiting different engines
>into a van. For example: 1.9 TDI; 2.5 TDI; VR6; Audi 5Zyl.; Ford V6 etc.

I want to get my van raised first as high as I can get it into the air.
Then, later, I want one of those engine kits. I am thinking to get the
Oettinger 6 cylinder kit if I can figure out how to get my van back into the
USA with that motor, which is not approved here. But I understand that the
USA inspectors will not check to see if the motor has changed, thinking that
it would be improbable to change to an unapproved motor while traveling
overseas.

The diesel here in the USA is not very popular. The other motors you
mentioned often carry the undesirable requirement that they stick up too
high and require that the roof over the engine must be raised, which few of
us wants to do. I think there is somebody on our emailing list changing over
to the Audi 5Zyl right now but I am not sure. I was not aware of the VR6
installation. All these subjects are fairly well covered in
http://halfdan.med.umn.edu:8853/misc/archives/vanagon.html in any case.
These lifting issues, and issues related to the 16" version, are NOT covered
since we haven't found the 16" people yet who know the answers.

>I must finish now.

OK. One more thing before I finish: (My wife next to me wants me to stop
typing in the bed, put my laptop away, and go to sleep):=20

There is an easy way to change the ride height that I have found which is to
put something under or over the springs of about 1" in thickness. This
causes the van to ride 1" higher. If you look in your microfiche or parts
book, you will see a piece of rubber over the rear spring. You can add two
or three more pieces of rubber like this at the same location, and this will
raise your van.=20

The only disadvantage of this over the full 16" approach is that you have
less suspension "travel." This means that your spring has less amount of
expansion and contraction that it can do before it hits the limit of the
ability of the shock absorber to extend to its full length. But I have
undertaken this approach as a temporary measure in the meantime.

I can also write a lot on the need to make better skid plates for severe
off-road travel, but that is another topic.

Perhaps you could print out some copies of this note and share them with
your 16" technical people. They will find errors in my analysis and be able
to quickly answer some of these matters about which I have had questions for
years.

>Bye
>
>Tobias Hobert
>Tobias.Hobert@t-online.de
>89 Tristar Syncro 16"

___________________________________
Derek Drew                           New York, NY
drew@interport.net (main address for e-mail)
derekdrew@aol.com (alternate/backup, checked infrequently)=20