Date:         Sat, 22 Mar 97 19:35:51 EST
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@vanagon.com>
From:         jag@cs.rochester.edu
Subject:      Re: Spring has sprung and so has the rust.

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:04:11 -0700
>From: Mike Wynn <lmf1@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
> 
>         Well all the snow is finally slowly disappearing, and van washes are
> becoming more and more frequent. With the last couple washes Ive done, the
> sight of the small rust spots on the hook-up side of my 83' Vanagon are
> really starting to bug me. So, I was wondering if anyone could either point
> me to, or inform me of the process of prepping, protecting, and repainting
> all those hidious little metal malformities.
>         All the spots seem to be occuring on the bottom panel - drivers side
> below my water/power hook ups. Is this a common place to get rust? Anyone
> else have a similar problem?

Unfortunately yes. It is also likely that your rust problem stems
from water leaking inside the body panel. I had similar rust spots, which
on inspection turned out to be serious cancer (the paint was still hiding
most of it until I probed around the spots.) The rust under the hookups was 
caused by water leaking in though the hookups and puddling on the body 
reinforcement beam some 10 cm below. Eventually it started rusting between 
the beam and the panel. 

This happended to me and at least one other listmember, Harry Yates,
For a more wordy account see the archives:

My post: 
	Thu, 10 Aug 95, 

or if you like typing lots of strange characters:
	http://www.med.umn.edu:8853/cgi-bin/msg?m=msg13352&a=/v95/vanagon.95.08

Harrys:
	Sun, 3 Mar 96
or:
	http://www.med.umn.edu:8853/cgi-bin/msg?m=msg05046&a=/v96/vanagon.96.03


For advice on how to fix rust, here is a compilation of some previous
net.wisdom:

>From Bob's rusty seams sermon:

	When dealing with a rusty seam often times your only recourse is to 
	use chemicals but the most successful method is to remove the rust, 
	weld the seam closed and go on from there. 

>From vwairfaq:

	So basically you have rusted metal.  You can cover it up by
	cleaning off the rust, coating it with some rust inhibitor, cover it
	with body filler, paint it and wait for the rust to reappear some
	other day.  There are those that feel this is adequate given a tight
	budget.  The more aggressive types say you should always cut
	out *all* rust, replace with new metal, grind, sand, prime and
	paint for a long lasting solution.  This FAQ will assume you want
	to be a little more aggressive and do a thorough job, but will
	mention the "low dough" approach when appropriate.  

So basically both are bad news to us who think we can solve our problems
with a little sanding, naval jelly (phosphoric acid) and bondo. However
Bob's sermons does go on and tell us how to do a descent job without
welding:

>From Bob's how to fix the rusty windshield sermon:

	If you wish to use fiberglass for the repair you should
	have some experience with composites and with
	the unique problems of bonding composites to steel
	structures. In most cases the fiberglass repair will
	result in a new, rust-proof flange only to produce
	rust under some other portion of the repair a few
	years later. Repair of an improperly done composite
	repair is more difficult than doing a welded repair. 

	The best composite repair is to build a mold of the
	shape you wish to produce using rigid urethane
	foam. You can glue the foam to the dashboard then
	sand it to shape. This will put gravity on your side
	as you do the lay-ups and fills. Covering the
	urethane with heat-smoothed plastic sandwich
	wrap will impart a glass-smooth surface to the
	finished lay-up. 

	The lay-up should progress in two steps, first
	laying up two or three layers of fine twill-woven
	six-ounce fabric saturated with a suitable epoxy
	resin. Surface with peel-ply and allow to cure. Strip
	off the peel-ply. trim for height, lay in a build-up of
	saturated chopped cotton fiber to form the fillet then
	do the finish lay-up with two or three layers, the
	first layer being the widest, the other(s) narrower.
	The stepped layers will be easier to blend in to the
	contour. If properly done, the repaired flange will
	have exactly the same contour as the metal flange it
	replaced but will be stronger and impervious to rust.

	Once the lay-up has cured, grind to finished size
	and blend the layers into the contours of the nose.
	Prime and paint. 

The chemicals Bob refers to are so called rust converters and rust removers:

Converts rust to some more stable oxide, and leave a polymer
protective coating to prevent new rust (often requires several
coats for this to be effective). The coating can
be painted over with a primer, and sometimes directly with a 
top coat.

Brand names and manufacturers:

Extend: Loctite
Rust reformer: Rust-Oleum
Neutra rust: New York Bronze powder Co.
Trustan: Trustan Co
Rust avenger: 
  3M Coorp.
  Automotive trades div.
  3M center
  St. Paul, MN 55144-1000
  (612) 733-1110

*Rust removers: 
Rust removers are applied and then washed off.
They dissolve or convert rust. The surface must be primed and
painted after washing.

Phosphoric acid based:
  Naval jelly
  Rust-A-hoy: Travasco Labs Inc.
  Cortec 420/421: Cortec Corp.
    310 Chester St.
    St Paul, MN 55107
    (612)224-5643

Other:
  Oxi-solv: Leaves a zinc phosphate coating, which improves
	    paint adhesion.
    Solv-O Coorp.
  PO Box 787
  Taylor MI 48180
  (313) 292-2060

Good luck in your "rustoration"

/Martin (and '82 Westy)

PS The best rust prevention here in the road salt infected east is
to wash the buss frequently (don't forget the underside).