Date:         Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:14:27 -0700
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@vanagon.com>
From:         Barbara Sutton/Cris Torlasco <bsutton@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Subject:      Re: response as promised

Martha wrote:
> 
> Editorial - note: you have free will, at least in your own mail
> box.  If you don't want to read this, I assume you can choose
> to hit the delete key. J:)...
> 
> Firstly, thanks to many of you who sent what info you had to the
> mailing lists, and to me privately.  As adamant and with good
> support as many of you were about why it's not OK to burn plastic
> bags, I must tell you that an equal amount of mail came to
> me (more privately than on the list) citing reasons for why
> the burning of plastic bags is not particularly significant.  Extra
> points to those of you who kept your arguments objective.  :)  An
> odd thing was the inverse proportion of loud rambling to
> back up statistics, but that's not for now.
> 
> I promised publically and privately I'd respond to what came in.
> I'd like to point out that I'm a musician, not a scientist, but
> I've tried to be as left-brained as possible in understanding
> the info you sent.  Thanks to all who
> contributed, both publically and privately.  People as I who question
> whether a seeming politically correct philosophy might be hyporitical
> are bound not to be popular.  Please be mindful that I
> was putting out food for thought, not trying to put
> someone down.  For whomever's feathers were ruffled by
> this, I'm sorry; it was not my intent.  I embarked on this only to explain
> my own philosophy and to question what I saw as a paradox.
> 
> Firstly, I should have made clear what kind of
> plastics I was talking about specifically.  It seems that burning
> styrofoam is about a 10 on the richter scale, but that these bags
> are about a 1.  I'd also like to point out that I don't believe
> any styro burning took place at our campout, nor can I recall that
> any of us have brought these kinds of cups particularly to
> past campouts.  I was not aware that plastic utensils do
> not fall into the same category as plastic bags, am now
> educated about that, and therefore won't burn them.
> 
> Secondly, I'd like to remind 2 of you that I did not post
> that I felt because one sort of pollution was taking place, that
> it was OK for another one to.  My comment had to do with
> questioning the paradox - of honestly wanting to know
> how significant burning plastic bags is in comparison to
> burning fossil fuels, using vehicles recreationally, and/or
> burning campfires.
> 
> One argument which surfaced with heated emotion was that
> it's acceptable to pollute the environment a little if we
> derive pleasure and fun from it - like it's OK to drive a
> car, have a campfire, and burn magnesium.  But that since we
> don't HAVE to burn plastic bags, it should not be done.  I'm still
> thinking about this:  if the politically correct concern here
> is for the environment, then we should be hiking and backpacking
> in, not driving.  And there should be no campfire.  And we
> should all be burying our bowel movements, no?
> 
> That a few didn't like the smell is a point I hadn't considered
> and I apologize if our burning of plastic invaded your
> ohlfactory sensitivities.  On those grounds, I'm happy not
> to burn plastic bags around you.
> 
> If burning these bags destroys the ozone, this is not good - but
> make sure if you don't burn bags for this reason that you also don't use
> anything else which contributes to the problem like enjoying
> all but ultra-modern air-conditioning, or charcoal lighter fluid.
> 
> A strong point was made by 2 other people that burning plastic bags,
> indeed several other types of "garbage" becomes more
> non-hazardous at high temperatures.  Perhaps we should
> burn our trash on the magnesium, which burns at 5KF?  Dunno.  I'm
> interested in finding out more about this, since the entire
> city of Munich, Germany, apparnently produces much electrical
> power by burning trash at high temps in town, much like they heat
> their homes burning wood at high temps in masonry heaters.  And I
> learned that Denmark makes enough hot water for the entire
> country solely by burning trash, including plastics.  Again,
> both are done at high temps.  It seems that if burning these
> materials causes cancer "without a doubt" as one person posted,
> that large cities in Europe will be quite vacant very soon.  Again,
> I would like to know more.  The fact that people do something
> in large groups doesn't make it right, it's just not to be ignored
> that their cancer rates are not higher than places
> where this is not done.  Again, maybe this is time-related.  But
> if so, won't our cars and woodsmoke get us, then, too?
> 
> Some of you echoed that putting the plastic in the
> landfill could be worse for the environment than burning it
> at high temps.  As I said, and as some of you did, too, recycling
> it would be fine, especially if we can prove that this is
> preferable to burning it at high temps.
> 
> It was brought to my attention that a few people do not
> wish to attend future CCC's campouts if I plan to be there.  My
> suggestion to this is that I'll be clear about which activities
> I plan to attend, or not (have I ever been otherwise?).  If I
> do plan to attend, I'll try to remember to put out a disclaimer
> that our group has been known in the past to contribute to
> polluting the environment - by burning campfires, driving
> vehicles, burning magnesium, and plastic bag incineration.  If
> that's offensive, perhaps we'll have to have campfires on
> opposite ends of the grounds, or just 2 trips?  The "we can
> tolerate busgirl group," and the opposers.
> 
> Yes, people,
> I invited the group to fireworks.  The audience will be
> 10K people.  They will make sewage.  They will undoubtedly
> impact the ozone in some way or another.  Particulate
> matter will spew in your air.  Oops, sorry, maybe that
> one is OK, because fireworks are "fun?"  :)
> 
> One person felt my arguments had no validity and that I simply
> was posting simply out of being stubborn.  Apparently I
> exhibited stubborn-ness on one other CCC's event, too.  I
> suppose anything I do to address that issue will simply
> add fuel to the fire, so I won't.
> 
> Let's be honest, volks - are some of you standing under one
> arm of a branch of political correctness, when the REAL issue
> here is one of restricting personal choice?  If the argument is
> that you don't want to be doing this to avoid harming the
> environment, you shouldn't be driving and having campfires, either.
> I can't stop any of you from doing with things whatever you
> wish, nor would I if I could.  If you don't like what I'm
> doing to the environment, make damned sure a finger can't
> be pointed at you, and next time please pick an issue
> a lot bigger than plastic bags.  This threatens to
> turn into a case of political correctness out of control.
> Can it be that it's considered acceptable to jump on
> the bandwagon of political correctness, without stopping to
> think about it?  Is it truly OK to damage the air with
> one thing for fun, but not another which isn't?
> 
> The bottom line is:
> if the end is to not impact the environement, a LOTJof the group
> is guilty of things much worse than burning plastic bags, and
> much of it not at our campouts.   Reminds
> me of the story I told a few of you - of the person insisting
> on becoming a vegetarian because of being opposed to animal
> cruelty.  Then looked down and saw their leather shoes.
> 
> I suggest,too, that we not start a military patrol over this.  If
> this starts, you won't have to ask me not camp with you.  I too suggest
> that any burning of "offensives" be done late at night over the high
> heat of magnesium to offer the possibility of more complete
> combustion.  I for one will agree not to burn plastic bags in
> the daytime, and not to burn them around children or food.  If
> you are offended at the proposed late-nite burning, it seems
> to me you could park your van farther away, not sit by
> the fire, not stay up late, or simply do as 2 others have
> promised:  not go camping when I'm there.
> 
> /m
Hi Martha:
I've been in the CCC list for the last couple of months, hoping to some
day, when you guys decided to camp on the very north side of California,
I could join you. (I live in Eugene, OR.) The group sounds like fun, and
share two of my biggest hobbies, camping and VW's. However, reading
about your views about the plastic burning issue made me change my mind.
Without even considering the scientific data that puts plastic burning
as a bad idea for the environment, consider the following: If there is
even a small doubt that burning plastics in a campground will pollute
the environment and create unwanted odors, why do it? It can be THAT
much fun... I don't think I would enjoy being part of a group that
allows such irresponsible acts to happen, just for the fun(?) of it.
Sincerely,
Cris.