Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:04:17 -0500
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@vanagon.com>
From:         John Hung <john.hung@msfc.nasa.gov>
Subject:      Re: Shifted to Death


>it may need more love and attention than I can give to it, for some reason
>my wife didn't want me to change the clutch in the driveway in front of our
>house(is that redneckish)

I've done mine in the driveway (1-1/2 times - see explanation below).  OK,
so I live in Alabama.  But I'm a poor college professor who likes to tinker
with cars, and needs to save money.

>
>So , any suggestions from understanding and experienced readers on the
>possibility of the clutch fading from existence?

Yes, clutches will "fade" from existence ... Happened to our family exactly
as you describe (once near home at 60,000 miles near, once at 110,000 miles
on vacation - but there is a story to the second time).  Wife was really
distressed, and I can't blame her.  Nobody likes to run into problems far
from home.

>
>What I have noticed in the year that we have owned the van I have never
>mastered the clutch thing. it always seemed to let out rough, (chatter
>grama's teeth right out) :-)
>
>could this clutch have been kind to me for the last year?

Clutches should NOT chatter if installed correctly.  It probably isn't you
either.  Here's my long-winded story...maybe it will help you.

The first time I replaced the clutch, the van had about 60,000 miles on it
(I'm the second owner).  I did the job by myself in the middle of the night
(in the driveway), just before a family trip to Wisconsin.  No problems.

At around 110,000 miles, we had problems while on vacation in Orlando, FL.
Why was I having clutch failure SO SOON?  I was a bit disturbed, because I
consider myself a careful (maybe a bit slow) mechanic, and a gentle driver.
Past clutches in other vehicles lasted longer in my care.  I visually check
the hydraulics like you mention below, and found nothing wrong.

Being on vacation far from home, I had no choice but to entrust our beloved
van to the local dealer, who charged me $800 for a new clutch disc,
pressure plate, throwout bearing, and pilot bearing (and I had to rent a
car for a couple of days - more $$).  "OK," I thought, "not too
unreasonable for some piece of mind for my family."  I actually consider
myself blessed to have been stranded in a big town like Orlando, which has
several VW dealerships - it would have been worse in some other parts of
the country.  On the way home to Alabama, the shifting starts acting up
again!  Now I'm getting a bit upset.  But we limp home, and the hard
shifting problem kind of comes and goes.

One month later, my wife is carrying a full load of Girl Scouts and is
stranded 5 miles from home in the middle of the night - not a happy scene.
I'm really miffed now at the Orlando dealer.

I take apart the clutch mechanism and immediately suspect that I've been
ripped off.  The clutch looks like the one I installed at 60,000 miles,
with the wear that one would expect from 50,000 miles - but the disc looks
like it could go another 50,000 miles!  There are absolutely no problems
with the pressure plate, or throwout bearing.  What I DO notice, however,
is that I had a slightly difficult time separating the tranny from the
engine.  "That is not right," I reason, "things should operate smoothly."
Something must have been binding on the the transmission input shaft (the
thing with the splines - the disc slides on it).

I stick my finger into the pilot bearing to feel around, and OUCH ... got
stabbed with sharp broken needles and a messed up bearing cage.  What has
happenend?  Well, the disintegrating pilot bearing was seizing the
transmission input shaft.  So even if the clutch mechanism was disengaging
properly, the engine was turning the transmission, and shifting becomes
difficult (even impossible).  By the way, if the pilot bearing is bad, the
end of the transmission input shaft may not properly supported, and one
might get CHATTER as the clutch is engaged.

I recheck the Orlando dealer's work order ... they claim to have replaced
everything.  Yeah, right ... and I have a bridge to sell you.  I suspect
they pulled the tranny, found nothing wrong with the clutch, and shoved
everything back together.  The worn pilot bearing was freed from the input
shaft just long enough to get me down the road, but further disintegration
occurred, leading to my wife being stranded.

Needless to say, I was not happy with the Orlando dealer's work.  I suspect
I've been ripped off for the parts that were never really replaced, but I
have no proof - nor the stomach and $ to fight in court.  As Jesus says,
"Turn the other cheek."  God can handle this better than I can.

Well, to put a happy ending on this story ... I live in Auburn, AL which is
a university town with not many import car repair places, but there is a
one decent shop.  Unfortunately, the van is already in pieces in the
driveway.  I decide to replace the bearing myself.  I fashioned a bearing
puller from a big bolt, using a only a hacksaw, and some crude turning on
an old lathe - (remember, I'm a college professor, not a machinist), but it
works. I go to the FLAPS, and behold, the new pilot bearing is only $12.
Yes, TWELVE dollars.  I put it in, and have never had a problem since (the
odometer is around 130,000 miles now).

All those hours of worry on vacation, all that money spent at a dealer and
on rental car, those anxious hours my wife had with her Scouts ... it came
down to properly diagnosing the problem, and a $12 part.

Once again, a good mechanic is worth his/her weight in gold, and I'm still
not impressed with most dealership shops.

Well Tony, best wishes with your clutch.  If the disc and pressure plate
are not worn or greasy, and the flywheel surface is good, I'd look at the
pilot bearing.

On a related but important note, I had an identical failure in my 84 Audi
5000s.  What happened there was that the shop had installed the pilot
bearing BACKWARDS.  The bearing looks very similar from both ends, so it's
an easy mistake to make (especially if one doesn't read the repair manual
carefully).  BUT one end of the bearing cage is much thicker and sturdier.
You MUST install with that end facing you.  If the bearing is pressed in
backwards, the thin side of the cage will be distorted - any getting it out
becomes VERY DIFFICULT.  In my case, the needles bound up, and
disintegrated in a couple of months - leading to the shifting woes again.
The Audi tranny is a lot harder to R & R than the Vanagon (there's not much
room under the car to work), but I did that job myself also.

Sincerely,

John Hung
84 GL 'blue brick'
84 Audi 5000s
86 BMW 325 (wife's red joy)

>
>I did bleed the clutch slave cylinder and the arm that the cylinder moves
>still moves, the van will not start up in gear with the clutch pushed in
>without jerking the vehicle like the clutch is out.
>
>I thought it may have been a shifter problem but I lubed the linkage and
>dry shifting seems easy to do.
>
>Once I was going in gear the tranny didn't make any funny noises and the
>clutch didn't slip.
>
>Helpless to shift
>Tony
>86 westi