Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:39:20 -0500
Reply-To: Derek Drew <drew@INTERPORT.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <Vanagon@vanagon.com>
From: Derek Drew <drew@INTERPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: Syncro Alignment & Vibrations
In-Reply-To: <351B25B1.2BE030DE@concentric.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
OK folks, here is some long-overdue comments about these old alignmnent
specifications.
At 08:06 PM 3/26/98 -0800, you wrote:
>A word of caution re syncro alignments. I had my syncro westy aligned
>to Derek's specs at a BMW dealer (at no charge, for reasons not relevant
>here...). The operator was smart and knowledgable. The machine was
>nearly new. After they were done, i drove it and it did not feel right,
>so I took it back. They put it back up on the rack and checked
>everything...made a minor adjustment to a rear wheel...and printed out
>the report for me...it was aligned to Derek's specs. It still did not
>handle right. I took it to the vw/porshe dealer and had them aloign it
>to current vw specs( ...which i believe may be different than the vw
>specs current at the time of Derek's post). They changed the settings
>on 3 of the 4 wheels to get it to vw specs. WHAT A DIFFERENCE. The
>van handled great.
>
>I do not know why Derek's specs did not work on my syncro westy (I
>checked the second time I went back to BMW to make sure I had the right
>numbers printed out). Perhaps it's because he has larger tires and a
>slightly elevated rear suspension. Maybe the operator got it wrong.
>But at up to $180 for a four wheel front end alignemnt done properly,
>having the wrong specs. can be expensive. Does anyone know what is
>going on here?
It isn't because my van is jacked up in the rear as these specs were
obtained purely from numerical data and errors the Hunter people admitted
they had put into their machines, as well as a difference between early and
late Bentley manuals.
Empircal data might well result in superior alignments to those obtained
using a mathmatical formula as I did.
Now, here are some important comments. I documented the calculations I made
and in the documentations you will see the following:
TRANSLATING DEGREES, MINUTES, AND INCHES:
Degrees Minutes Inches
0.01* = 0.6' = 0.005"
0.0165* = 1' = 0.00825"
0.025* = 1.5' = 0.0125"
0.05* = 3' = 0.025"
0.10* = 6' = 0.05"
0.167* = 10' = 0.0825"
0.25* = 15' = 0.125"
0.5* = 30' = 0.25"
0.75* = 45' = 0.375"
1* = 60' = 0.50"
Degrees devided by 2 = inches
2* = 1.00"
3* = 1.50"
4* = 2.00"
5* = 2.50"
Inches to Minutes
1.00" = 15'
Nevertheless, I now see VW has published in a Microfiche a "Conversion
chart for alignment specifications" dated August 31, 1990.
*Their* conversions seem dependent on *rim size* and they have conversions
for 13, 14, and 15 inch rims. My calculations make no such allowance for
rim size.
I have not checked my alignment specs against a conversion specific to 14"
rims, if it makes a difference, and invite anyone who wishes to do so to
make their own conversion on this as I have not the time to get my head
going on this. That is, I invite anyone who has the time to double check,
my work, and check it further against this microfiche assuming 14" rims.
You will probably need to look in the archives for the author
derekdrew@aol.com (an obsolete address) around the very beginning of the
list to get the complete data. Good luck.
They key Technical Bulliten is number 91-05, August 31, 1990 which I see
here in Fiche No. 2 of 2 of the Technical Bullitens fiche dated Feb 15, 1993.
Nevertheless, you can make your own check of your alignment by taking the
measurement on page 44.3a of Bentley and seeing if your printout from the
alignment matches what Bentley says it should be. Typically, it does not
and this prompted my original investigation. Page 44.3a was an updated
procedure for arriving at proper alignment specs that was not in the
earlier edition of Bentley, so presumably, it supercedes it.
If your mechanic does not put a tape measure to the wheelwell, he is not
giving you an alignment to the updated procedure.
My original posts urge owners to take note of the tape-measure-to-wheelwell
method of determing proper alignment specs.
I have heard nobody talking about this method lately, however, with people
preferring to walk around with printouts of a post I made to 15 people back
in 1994.
>Similar to Malcom's problem, I also have a bit of a shudder or what
>feels like shaking in the rear of my van. It feels like something in
>the rear is fluttering or slightly shaking, but the motor mounts seem
>ok...not a lot of movement. It occurs under different
>circumstances...sometimes at between 2000 and 2600 rpms while under low
>to moderate throttle at low to moderate speeds...other times it happens
>when coasting over slightly bumpy road at low speeds...and sometimes at
>highway speeds depending on the road surface (not smooth), rpm
>(moderate....2000-2800) and incline (slight to moderate hills).
>Engaging the clutch does not stop whatever is causing it from causing
>it.
>
>Two weeks ago I traveled about 150 miles on rough washboard dirt
>road...at slow, non-abusive speeds...but everything got a good shaking.
>Given this and the symptoms, it seems like it could be motor mounts.
>Kyle thinks it may be u-joints...but he needs to drive it, of course,
>before he can validate that opinion. I already tried having the wheels
>balanced...and no difference. Can anyone venture a
>guess...U-joints...motor mounts....bushings somewhere...shocks (i have
>KYB gas shocks close to 3 years old....35,000 miles) It seems
>different from what Malcolm is experiencing.
>thanks for any clues...tips...guesses...potions or cures.
>steve
>.
>
>Malcolm Stebbins wrote:
>
>> Re: my 91 Syncro Westie:
>>
>> I wrote:
>> >Also at 110 kph (65 ish mph) there is
>> > a small vibration (like tires slightly out of balance, or a bit of a
>>
>> > washboard road) but the vibration disappears if I back off the
>> >throttle a hair,
>>
>> Sam Scholten wrote:
>> >>That just sounds like the van needs a front-end alignment, nothing
>> more. Out of
>> >>balance tires wobble or shimmy at any speed. Buffeting at 65 but
>> smoothing out
>> >>when you back off the accelerator is a classic case of a bad
>> alignment.
>>
>> I had the wheels aligned (and balanced) at one of the Speedy Muffler
>> type places, they had the specs for a 91 syncro. I watched them do
>> the
>> work The specs called for the front to be toed out just a bit.
>>
>> Before I took it in to get it aligned I tried to check out what was
>> posted on the web. On some web page someplace (I forget where) ,
>> there
>> was a hot link to "Syncro Alignment" but every time I clicked on it,
>> it
>> came up "no data in file" - or some such.
>>
>> Can anyone confirm Sam Scholten's observation (no offence Sam)??
>> Any hints/tips for alignments for Syncros (or a web page?)
>>
>> Thanks Malcolm Stebbins
>>
>> ______________________________________________________
>> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
_____________________________________________________
Derek Drew New York, NY & Washington DC
ConsumerSearch
drew@interport.net
212-580-6486 (W)
212-580-4459 (H)