Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:43:10 CDT
Reply-To: Joel Walker <JWALKER@UA1VM.UA.EDU>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <Vanagon@vanagon.com>
From: Joel Walker <JWALKER@UA1VM.UA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Anyone not having problems?
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:50:06 -0400 from <dmc@CYBURBAN.COM>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 DavidM said:
>Judging by the amount of problems I see being discussed here, I must
>admit I am getting the impression that owners of these vehicles are
>having to tinker with them on a daily or weekly basis to keep them
>running.
nah. remember the Weakly Statz. see how many buses are actually on the
list. then notice how many people are doing the posting ... there are
very few folks that are putting out most of the mail. most folks that have
have buses don't post. that doesn't mean they don't have problems ... just
that they don't vocalize any problems they do have. so you are seeing the
complainers a lot more than the i-haven't-had-a-problem-this-year folks.
the biggest problem we Vanagon owners have is that vw has basically
abandoned us ... they've also abandoned the air-cooled buses and beetles
and other cars of the 60's and 70's. it's all about money now. always was,
but we let ourselves believe there was this thing about "customer service".
anyway, the dealers, by and large, do NOT know how nor care to fix the
Vanagons. oh, they can work on the Golf and the Jetta. but the buses did
not sell in any great numbers, so the mechanics don't get trained or want
to get trained. the great cruelty to the Vanagon was the different engine
... if it had the Rabbit/Golf/Jetta engine in it, there would have been many
fewer problems in finding competent service at the dealers. and parts would
have been cheaper.
>The other impression I get, is that VW mechanics are hard to find, VW
>dealers are pretty hopeless, and VW parts are horrendously expensive.
yeah. sort of. but it's gotten a LOT better in the last five years, with
the Vanagon mailing list ... there are now more sources of supplies and
parts. we are not held hostage by the dealers. well, not as much, anyway.
a good mechanic, of any brand or model, is very hard to find. an honest
one is even more rare. try talking to the Porsche folks about this. or
Mercedes, where a 60,000 service on a 300E 4-door sedan will cost you
nearly $1000. just a service, mind you. that's oil change, tune-up, and
replace every sensor, belt, and fluid that they can find ... ANYthing that
MIGHT break/fail/die is replaced. they have a reputation to maintain, you
know. and cost be damned!!
>I am currently the owner of a Toyota I have scarcely had to touch for
>the last 10 years except for oil changes, new tires and batteries.
but what model? Corolla? tough little car. try talking to the owners of
Previas and Supras and see what they say about parts costs and finding a
good mechanic and/or dealer. it's not as bad as VW, but they do have their
problems.
Toyota makes very good cars and trucks. they are the oldest auto maker in
Japan. their engines are some of the most reliable and long-lived in the
automobile world. but poor maintenance can ruin them. how about a new
4-cylinder pickup, driven 60,000 miles a year (he paints billboards), and
the radiator clogs from crud caused by the head gasket dissolving ... due
to a failure to change the anti-freeze at 30-40,000 miles (or what would
normally be two years worth of mileage)?? but Toyotas have tough engines
... if you treat them right.
same thing with Vanagons. my personal feeling is that the head gasket leaks
are all due to failure to replace the anti-freeze every two years or 30,000
miles ... the anti-corrosion additives in the coolant wear out. and when
they are completely gone (in about 3.0-3.5 years or 60,000 miles), the
corrosion eats away at the head gasket.
and it's not just VW or Toyota. Mercedes, Audi, Volvo, Saab, Porsche ...
they ALL recommend replacing ALL the fluids on a regular schedule. Mercedes
doesn't even ASK ... they just DO it. period. on the 18-wheeler tractor
trucks, they don't even replace it ... they ADD new additives. they have a
filter on the cooling system, and they replace the filter every couple of
months (they drive a LOT) and each new filter has new chemical additive
sticks. that way, they can be back on the road very quickly and still
keep the cooling system in top shape.
so why didn't VW stress this and make the owners do it? i don't know. if you
read the owner's manuals, they seem to indicate that the coolant should NEVER
be replaced. why? i don't know. i don't understand it either.
>I would be curious to know how many owners of the VW vans have actually
>gone extended periods or high-mileages without having to do anything
>execept routine maintenence to their vehicles. Perhaps this will redress
>the balance in my mind and restore my faith in them.
well ... yeah. but only because i've done all the little nit-picking stuff
along the way. i've had some large failures of vw design, too. $1400 for
a transmission rebuild. water pump replaced. power steering rack is leaking
badly (i've got another one but haven't gotten round to putting it on yet).
on the whole, i'd say my 88 GL Vanagon has been pretty trouble free. i'd
go off on a trip to Alaska right now (i'd want to replace the coolant
first!). but then, i KNOW the history of the car. buying a used car is a
whole nuther story. :(
i don't know that you can "restore your faith" in vw. i can't. i would never
buy another new car from them, simply based on the way i've been treated
by the majority of the dealers ... and the prices. i can't recommend their
new cars at all. but i know people who have new Passats and love them.
sometimes it's best to just move on with your life and see what is in a
different direction, instead of "looking back". if you need a van-type
vehicle, why not check into a Previa? i'm told it's the same old Corolla
taxi-cab engine. and you CAN'T do much work on it yourself ... the engine
is in the middle. but then, you are back to the problem of finding a dealer
or mechanic that will or can work on it. competently, that is. :(
vw's and especially vw buses and vanagons are NOT for everyone. neither
are porsches or yugos or sport utility vehicles. it's like shoes ... you
need to find a pair that fit your feet AND your "look". if you don't much
care what your shoes look like as long as they are comfortable and long-
wearing, then yeah, you might be a vw bus person. :) or a Previa person. ;)
(it is a bit odd-looking, you know).
i've driven vw's since 1958. i've driven vw buses since 1970. i have two
vanagons now, an 88 7-passenger van, and an 87 camper. i'd like to have
another one, a sycnro 4wd bus. but i'm likely to get an automatic bus instead
because my knees hurt me when i shift too much.
i've had Mercedes, Porsche, and several Hondas. the "best" car i had, in
terms of comfort, ease of driving, and so forth, was the Honda 2-door Accord.
i liked it better than the Mercedes or the Porsche. the Porsche was a bitch
to work on, and i couldn't find anyone in this 2-dog town that could do a
decent tune-up on it. :( taking the Mercedes to the local dealer was an
expensive mistake. i will not admit to owning any British cars. ever. never
did that. no way. (you think VW's are bad?? get a Jaguar or Rover. or a
Fiat or Lancia!!!).
>It is not my desire to criticize VW but merely to determine if one would
>meet my current needs. I have owned VW's in the past, but my need is now
>more for reliability and fuss-free parts replacement and repairs.
>I no longer am able to do my own repairs and like everyone else find it
>almost impossible to find a good mechanic.
what do you do for your Toyota now? will the mechanic dealer work on a
Previa? do you trust them? vw's are NOT fuss-free. german cars seem to
be designed to NEED fussing. toyotas seem to need it a bit less. american
cars don't seem to care ... but then, they fall apart sometimes. :)
no car can go long without some form of care and tending. one of the biggest
reasons for having a car serviced is to LOOK and SEE small problems BEFORE
they become BIG problems. this is one reason i don't like hydraulic valve
lifters ... you no longer have to adjust your valves. well, that means no
more crawling around in the dirt/driveway, looking at the bottom of your
engine (on a vw bus). which means you don't see the oil leak that might be
starting ... until it's too late. :( same thing on any car. the more often
you look, the smaller the problems you have to fix.
>I have been reading about fuel injection problems and leaking
>head-gasket problems which are certainly not easy to repair, even for a
>mechanic not familiar with VW's.
true. but what it boils down to is that the owners (us) can swap parts just
as easily and much more cheaply than the clowns who call themselves
"mechanics". and we learn along the way ... to trust ourselves and to trust
our bus. but this is true of any car, not just vw's and not just buses.
and with a list like this, we can ask and receive opinions and advice ...
which may help us lose some of the fear and anxiety about fixing the
problem. or we may find out there really isn't a problem.
yes, you'll likely have to learn to work on your own bus, if you get a vw.
unless you are very lucky (to find a competent dealer) and very rich.
i would suggest that you should look more at the Toyota side of things ...
they have impressed you and won you over, and i don't think you'd be happy
working on a vw bus. see if the Previa suits your needs. or maybe a Camry
station wagon. but remember: they are USED cars ... their condition will
depend greatly on how the previous owner(s) took care of them. and not all
Toyota owners are great people ... you may get a badly abused car in any
brand/model.
hope it helps. i'm not trying to be snobbish or abusive. but i think it's
a waste of your time to worry about "regaining faith" in a brand that
doesn't seem to hold much attraction for you (just sort of mild curiosity).
why do i drive vw buses? they "fit" me. i'm comfortble in them. and i'm
lazy ... i don't want to have to learn a new car/bus/van. besides ...
i already know where all the controls are. ;)
joel
