Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:50:08 -0400
Reply-To: John Anderson <janderson@IOLINC.NET>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <Vanagon@vanagon.com>
From: John Anderson <janderson@IOLINC.NET>
Subject: Re: AVP rebuilds and core charges?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>Mr Anderson, How come oyou always bad mouth everyone on the net, but never
>have sent back the head or explained the problem you had??Secondly I dont
know
Don't nearly bad mouth EVERYONE, just tell my experiences as I have them,
and explained the problem on numerous occasions (at least 4 emails, at least
3 got responses)
>if youv'e ever visited FG,but you may want to check them out before giving
a
>strong opinion on that. We suggest you read the archives and check w ith
Exactly what I suggested, sort of an implication there as well on FG?
>several other customers that have had very good luck with our products as
well
>as Mark Stephens, before you are so Bold. Thanks for your time. AVP
Well, as a matter of fact, I was one to initially write those "good things"
in the archives with respect to AVP with regards to experiences dealing with
2 sets of wasserboxer heads I installed for friends 3-4 years ago. And as a
matter of fact I had never DETAILED a negative thing about AVP to the list,
but after this rather whiney response (love how these things always get back
to vendors who "don't" have a presence they admit on the list here goes my
experiece with AVP.)
Bought a 2.0 liter vanagon block air cooled engine, probably July '96? I
had purchased a van in NJ needed to install the engine there, as it came
about when all was said and done I ended up not installing the engine there
as the cooling tin had been so butchered by previous head installation
(engine in situ) and even after straightening critical pieces were missing.
So installed a spare head I had, drove it home, Steve Dolan tracked down tin
pieces for me and round about August I installed the AVP engine. I will
note at this time before purchasing the engine, I had talked with Bill at
MSHP, and talked with Leonard and Erin extensively, and all are incredibly
wonderful people to talk with, informative, helpful, all as mentioned by so
so many others and I decided to go with AVP solely I believe because they
fit my schedule better. I was a bit skeptical with their practice of using
reground T4 lifters and requested new which they freely substituted, I was
quite happy.
Now first thing about AVP when you get the engine, despite such a "happy"
appearance you want to talk about a bulletproof, boiler plate, warranty.
Basically the warranty can be summed up as if god himself did not install
this thing with all new parts, you are probably SOL. Now I'm not saying
that is their policy or how they will deal with problems, I'm saying that is
how the paper reads, not my opinion only here, Gerry Skerbitz and I
discussed this recently and he got the same feel from the warranty card, I
feel anyone would get the same feeling, I know it is a CYA sort of world
today thanks to our legal system but I don't have to appreciate it. Engine
came with a few small annoyance, intake studs had been damaged in shipment,
one of the lower cylinder tins was cracked, that sort of thing, no real
problems just annoyances to be rectified. Two spark plugs had inserts, not
that I mind inserts but if you were welding up the seats anyway does it take
so much more effort to weld and retap the plugs (actually probably does in a
mass produced scheme for another fixturing on the mill let alone the
welding.)
So now lets talk about installation and "proper" break in since someone
implied that is necessary. OK installation with rebuilt and tested
injectors, new engine compartment seal, cleaned and pressure tested oil
cooler, the complete and straightened and sealed tin set, and an O2 sensor
installed for on site tuning and analysis. Engine was installed rather
carefully to say the least, I've been working on VW's of all kinds for over
10 years, any who have seen my work would probably characterize me in this
one area as slightly anal. Initial startup on 10W30 oil in the garage and
an entire "breakin" ritual, you know the score 15 minute run times through
revs, checking the emission etc, 45 minute cooldowns for about half a day,
then some ring seating exercises. All not really necessary, but what the
hell, help the engine wear in a bit. A side note here is that on initial
startup the hydraulic lifters took forever to pump up, as bad as any of my
considerable worn 150k mile engines after sitting for months without
running. Only on initial start and never again, I merely note it perhaps in
some far fetched was it caused my damage? I feel that at some time in
shipping from the engine had been perhaps placed on its side, from the stud
damage and slight damage to the pallet, I mention it, can't say it for sure,
and don't know what it might have done anyway, perhaps the cause for no oil
in lifters on one side? Oil dumped at the end of the day looks good. Well
this was all immediately prior (days) to vacation, so in goes some 15W40
Shell Rotella T (my year round choice except for VERY hot times which this
August was not particularly) and about a day of around town driving. All
seems OK, I note the power is no better than the engine I removed which is
par for the course I guess. AVP readily claims to build low compression
engines, they cut around a .020"? deep pocket on the heads making them sort
of like a Spanish AMC head to lower the compression, on a heavy Vanagon
camper this works to low mileage and low speed, but I didn't expect this to
be a ripper anyway and did not drive it as such, I do hold 3rd to 50mph on
an acceleration ramp but always mind oil temperature carefully.
So off on vacation. Get about 50 miles into the trip on some of the first
major grades and, oil pressure is REAL low at idle, about 10psi as I recall,
the temp gage was not yet in because it was backordered from Bus Boys. That
confuses me a tad, in this climate the Shell was sufficient in my '77, '78,
'85 but this is a heavy beast so, I stop, out comes the 15W40 in goes
Valvoline 40 wt straight. Oil pressure stabilizes is still rather low at
idle but anyway off we go. Oil changes are additionally performed at 300,
and 1000 miles on this trip (exceeding AVP's recommendations,) this time
going with 50 wt racing Valvoline. Power seems quite pitiful the whole trip
but I'd never driven an air cooled camper Vanagon so I don't worry it. On
returning I zip off an email to AVP about my few small concerns, they
reccomend readjusting the lifters (gee why don't I think of these things)
and living happily. I figure sure what the hell. Now at this time I own 3
other vans and the Corrado so the camper doesn't see much use but does
accumulate slightly over 7000 miles since the initial trip was nearly 2500,
gets oil changes at 3 and 6k. As time goes on power is getting perceptibly
worse. But it's weird by this time I've also installed oil temp gage and
most of the time it's OK but occasionally will climb into the 300F range on
a grade, only occasionally mind you, not always on the same grade and same
circumstances, the power seems "better" or "worse" at times as well. I'm
confused, cold compression tests always show 120 or so all round as they
always have, O2 still reads right sitting in the garage, I look at the
valves again. Now this is well outside the time warranty period on the
engine first off, it is May '97 at least (all from memory here people) and I
notice this time something interesting. The wear pattern on one exhaust
valve tip is only up and down, NO ROTATION, whatsoever, this exhaust valve
is not turning, later inspection of the tip under a scope shows that IMHO it
never turned, there was not even the hint of a circular scratch. I send an
another email to AVP asking about this and get basically a "you've always
imagined this problem" response.
Well I'm annoyed but busy at work so the thing sits another couple months.
Then two things occur, first I do a compression test with the engine at
operationg temperature, that cylinder reads low, like about 85 psi,
amazingly cold still reads 120. Then thanks to VWoA infinite wisdom I'm
getting a free set of heat exchangers for the van so I figure at the same
time why not pull the heads and have a look. The findings were as follows.
That exhaust valve was bent, chuck it in a lathe with an indicator and maybe
.025" runout on the contact surface. It fits (in one position) the seat
quite well as the seat is also sunk on one side. From the seat runs a 3/4"
long crack that originates in what appears (in my not so humble opinion as
I've looked at some welded aluminum) some porosity or just generally poor
weld underneath one side of the seat. Well I'm more than a tad annoyed, and
once again I send out an email, detailing about all I've said here to remind
them of the situation (the engine is well over a year old at this point.) I
chose email because they had always responded to it and because I wanted to
detail the experience at length without forgetting anything. At that time I
recieved absolutely NO response and NO invitation to return the head for
inspection by email, sent off another, but I admittedly NEVER called them as
I was quite annoyed at this point and not in a positive state of mind. I
had a couple used square port heads around so I slapped on an AMC head with
what I figured to be similar compression as I intended to sell the van. It
has after that point run quite well, but with still about the same power.
In point of fact a few months ago I purchased another head from AVP outright
to replace the AMC head as I'm about to sell the van and don't want any
mismatch (the van has accumulated only a few hundred miles in the last year
since the replacement.) Its quality appears fine, have not yet found the
time to replace it. During this whole episode, I have in fact still
guardedly reccomended AVP to numerous people for wasserboxer heads (all of
which I have ever seen have been excellent, particularly compared to MSHP.)
Yep, I might have been a one in a million case, but in fact if we were to
"check the archives" we'd find I haven't been the only one with a problem
with AVP. I babied this engine to death (hell even have only run 92 octane
it the thing,) I recieved a defective product, I initially recieved quite a
bit of "don't worry about it" from AVP, I recieved no recompensation. Those
are the facts. Whomever replied to me from AVP chooses to chide me yet take
a shot against FGA, I know nothing about FGA and that was the point of my
initial post on the subject. I will say this, a couple Bridgeports and a
South Bend lathe in a spic and span shop don't really impress me. I've
dealt with a lot of aerospace machine shops in the last 3 years, some you
could eat off the floor, others look like rat invested dung piles. It's odd
appearances don't always indicate end product quality. I'm old fashioned
that way, you know the quality of the part when you put in through final
inspection and most of all when you shoot it. Sure clean shops with anal
owners as a generality tend to yield higher quality parts, not always.
Anyway these are my dealings and my personal findings regarding AVP. They
are indeed a dissenting opinion on the list which regards AVP as the
god-like unquestioned supplier of van engines. This list has always been
that way regarding shops, panning some glorifying others, but I'll note, ole
GEX was glorified in the early years by many then fell out of favor (fell
hard) to all, MSHP has been up and down some with excellent dealings others
with poor dealings (I'll detail mine later.) Frankly I find it all quite
comical. Today, I'd buy a waterboxer head from AVP in a second, I'd think
twice about an air cooled head, and I'll never buy a full engine from anyone
(only did this one because time demanded it.) I believe what I see, and I
believe what I do and touch personally and take responsibility for those
things, for any more I doubt. It is my nature, it is interestingly the
nature of every "good" engineer and every quality machinist with which I
have ever dealt. If AVP would like their head back and would like to give
me some opinion on it, and hell say an engine gasket set and a refund on the
last head I purchased, I'd welcome it, it is a scrap hunk of aluminum to me
at the moment with dubious core value. Then too perhaps I would get in line
and sing only my tale of bliss to all who would listen. The response from
AVP makes me feel that I should simply be so outragegously happy that as a
whole so many happy little campers have recieved such a wonderful product
and so vocally profess it from the highest mountains that I should not be so
Bold as to question my personal experience. Anyone ever to meet me
personally knows I am EXACTLY so BOLD.
Here are a couple parting remarks (take them as shots if you like), AVP
builds low compression engines to sensibly cover their ass and keep head
temperatures low, for anyone thinking of putting one of these in an air
cooled Vanagon camper, I'd really rethink the move. I have personally heard
great things about MSHP "stage 1" air cooled engines (my poor experience
there is with wasserboxer heads.) One might consider that such a poor power
to weight ratio in such a heavy vehicle directly results in poor mileage,
poor driving habits (by force of avoiding death,) and possibly decreased
engine longetivity. I don't know the answer for sure here folks, don't
pretend to, but I do know as a rule the same engine lasted longer and ran
better with better mileage in a lighter Bus so reducing power sure isn't
the answer, maybe MSHP has it, maybe not you do the research and be the
judge. For use in a Bus particularly a non camper, I don't think it much
matters, for watercooled products all I have ever seen from AVP has been
great (such are most of the positive comments proferred by list members.)
When I initially bought the engine I questioned Leonard about proper dynamic
balancing. I recieved the basic response that it was of NO VALUE to a T4
engine, although I don't doubt that from a bottom end point of view, for
overall power and longetivity proper volumetric and inertial balancing
should not be ignored as valuable. The opinion miffed me, but they were
willing to do it all the same for an additional $100 (reasonable) but would
delay delivery which at the moment was my primary concern, as fate had it I
could have had it done. I've spoken to a few others, someone who once had
problems with a flywheel from AVP and sent it back, etc. and have the
feeling that AVP certainly considers VW tolerances and how they stack up
regarding balance more than sufficient for a T4 engine. Read into that what
you will this arguement has been broached many times on the list, those who
believe believe, those who don't don't. There is good as stock, then there
is a better product.
The last few sets of AVP heads I've seen (5 heads total) for air cooled T4's
are now coming with wonderfully annoying little shim stacks to place under
your jugs. This is a direct result of having to surface more off the heads
because they are what might have been considered poorer quality cores a few
years back I expect. Now you flycut them a bit more to clean them up, and
provide a stack of shims, such are the pains of mass production and an ever
diminishing set of rebuildable German cores. It is as I mentioned well
noted AVP is not as discriminating in this regard as others, a great thing
when you need to return beat cores but regardless of the great price,
perhaps not the best thing regarding product. Everything is a trade, does
it affect the quality of the rebuilt head, probably not one bit, is it an
annoyance, you better bet. Pulling the jugs without disturbing the rings to
put a stack of shims underneath ads time and an ever so slight complication,
you need to have a piston pin puller on hand, makes you feel you are working
on a wasserboxer almost. Is there another solution, probably not, either we
pay more and get less for warped or already cut cores or we get shims.
Perhaps a thicker copper crush gasket for use on top of the barrell? A
suggestion whose value I don't know. AVP informs you that you will get the
shims and need to install them but they are still an annoyance.
Anyway everyone read into all of this what you will, those blissfully happy
will remain so, those thinking about an engine from any remanufacturer, I
simply say, question everything regarding your experience and don't simply
take other peoples word for anything. These are the first detailed and last
words I'll ever have on the matter of my dealings with AVP, unless they are
merely blissfully positive. They are my experiences, the head in question
can be freely inspected by any who would like, they are not exagerated or
misrepresented in any way. In point of fact I never intended to generally
post these findings to the list, I had pmailed them occasionally to some
asking questions, but the mail from AVP pushed my buttons just right as my
initial post was brought on having run across the head in question while
moving some stuff around the other day.
John Anderson
206 Emerson Road
Clarksburg, WV
(304)622-7545
janderson@iolinc.net, vwbus@mindspring.com
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