Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:54:06 -0500
Reply-To: Martin Jagersand <jag@CS.YALE.EDU>
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: Martin Jagersand <jag@CS.YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Difference in these 2 starter numbers? ( non-USA diesel
models)
> From: Karl Mullendore <thewestyman@MINDSPRING.COM>
>
> I was perusing the Just Kampers catalog, and in the starter listings there
> are 2 starters listed for the diesel / turbodiesel vans: 068 911 023 MX and
> 068 911 023 JX . I am guessing that maybe the second # is a gear drive
> starter, as it was installed on 85 - on vans? If not, what might be the
> difference? I am curious because I want to use the best starter for my 1.9
> TD Syncro project, as once it is in there, it will be a bear to replace.
> Thanks for any and all input.
>
> Karl
> '87 Syncro Westy
The two on my fiche are:
068 911 023 D Starter, diesel vanagon (1)
068 911 023 J Starter, diesel vanagon, alt (2)
The picture of them look just the same, but that's not
conclusive evidence as VW has used the same pic for for instance
both the KKK and Garrett turbos.
Anyway, only difference in parts are the brush holder plate,
so the innards of the two must be virtually identicale otherwise.
I use the earlier type for my 1.9l TD project and it works just fine.
As you say it's hard to replace without pulling or at least lowering
the tranny so you might as well rebuild it now whjen it's out.
Better do it yourself so you can be sure it's done right. I copied a
previous post I made below, since list consensus seem to be that
looking in the archives is too much trouble.
Good luck,
Martin
--
Westy 1.9l Turbo Diesel
Quantum 1.6l Turbo Diesel
Martin Jagersand email: jag@cs.yale.edu
Computer Science Department jag@cs.rochester.edu
Yale University
Slow down and visit the VW diesel Westy page:
WWW: http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/jag/vw
-------------------------------------------------------------------
In a message dated 98-12-18 22:10:23 EST, you write:
> My starter is
> very tired though as it is very noisy and slow at cranking
> so a new starter would help here.
Bosch rebuilt starters can run near $200 nowdays, but rebuilding
it yourself is not hard. Here are some tips:
First check that it is really the starter. Measure the voltage
over the starter itself while cranking, ie from the positive
iput terminal on the starter to the starter housing. If it's
8-10V and the starter still is cranking slowly the starter is
most likely bad. If battery voltage is ok but voltage at
starter is low check voltage drop in the positive and negative
circuit. When I last measured I had .2V drop in the neg circuit
and .9V in the positive. Of the .9V .7V was over the solenoid and
.2V in ther actual cable.
So you determined that its the starter. All Bosch starters, gas
or diesel have the same basic design, but the sizes and housings
are different between different models. Get the right parts!
Wear parts are basically:
1/ Bushings: 3 total. One in each end, and one in the middle. The latter
I don't think carries much load. Cost: $2-3 each from the Bosch
distributor.
2/ Brushes: 4 in total. You can buy either a brush assembly for
$45 with the 4 brushes already mounted, or 4 loose brushes for
about $15 total. If you get loose brushes get ones with small
u-shaped metal ends welded to the copper braid. They are
much easier to solder to your brushholder.
The above is Bosch prices VW dealer prices are about twice
as much.
Rebuild procedure:
1. Unscrew the two small screws on the commutator housing (back)
this releases the brush holder.
2. Unbolt the two studs in the back. Now the commutator end comes
off after removing a circlip on the end of the shaft, and the stator
is loose, but don't pull it off yet.
3. Loosen the 3 screws holding the solenoid to the front housing
4. Between the solenoid and the starter motor is a small rubber
piece. See if you can loosen it. Carefully wiggle and separate the
front housing.
5. Solenoid and starter can be separated at the solenoid end.
Take off the solenoid. (To prevent binding wipe off any dirt or
corrosion on the solenoid plunger before reassembly)
6. Determine shape of bushings. The gear end bushing is in the
bellhousing on starters for transverse engine models, and in the
front housing on longitudinal engines. The place front and rear bushings
if worn.
7. To get at the middle bushing remove the ring and c-clip in
front of the gear. Slide off gear assembly. Take out plate
holding middle bushing. Replace if worn.
8. Check brushes. New brushes have about 8mm between the tip and
the copper braid. I'd replace them if they are more than
half worn. Also if the bushings were really bad the starter
shaft has been riding out of center, and the brushes have been
wearing irregularly and need replacement.
9. Snip off the braided copper holding the old brushes. Don't
lose the springs! File off any remains from the brush holder.
Solder on new brushes. Mahe sure they are soldered well.
Each brush will pass 100's of amps at startup!
10. Inspect the commutator. If pitted (from arcing) file down
until clean copper. If out of round use a lathe.
11. Assemble the parts. Grease bushings and gears lightly.
You don't want grease on the commutator or so that it can
spatter on the clutch.
-----------------------
Re: Starter rebuild
Sam writes:
> When I rebuilt my starter ('87 gas) I noticed that my field coil
> brackets (what the other end of the braided copper is attached to) was
> ALUMINUM. All other field cores that I have seen have been copper and
> soldering copper- to-copper is no big thing.
Most newer VW starters have the aluminum coils.
> But if you clip the
> braided copper too close to an aluminum core, there is no easy way to
> solder the new brush lead to the aluminum and you may end up having to
> replace your entire field as I did (not terribly inexpensive). I
> don't know if all the 2.1 starters used aluminum cores or not but mine
> did and I suspect there may be others. If your's is aluminum, clip
> the braided copper so that about 1 inch remains attached to the core.
> That way you can simply trim the new brush's lead to fit and solder
> copper-to- copper with the pigtail that's left attached to the core.
There are two types of brush arrangement. In the one you describe
two copper braids come out from the field coil and attach directly
to two of the brushes. The other brushes attach to the brush holder
plate. For this type you're right, you can't solder directly to
the aluminum, you would need the spot welding machine that a
professional rebuilder has. If the copper braid is in good shape
just solder the brush to it. If not go to a rebuilder and ask him to
do it (Maybe $10 for work). Should just take him a minute to do.
In the more common brush arrangement all four brushes are soldered
to terminals on the brush holder plate, and so is the copper braid
from the field coil. The metal in the brush holder plate is very
easy to solder to, so you can safely remove the copper braids from
the old brushes. In fact doing so lets you slip the u-shaped
attachement welded to the copper braid on better for lower electrical
resistance.
If you replace the whole brush assembly and plate, then cut the
copper braid from the field coil as close to the plate as possible
and solder it to the new plate.
Cheers,
Martin
068 911 023 D Starter, diesel vanagon (1)
068 911 023 J Starter, diesel vanagon, alt (2)
Repair parts:
068 911 215 A Brushes
068 911 209 B Brush holder plate for 1
068 911 209 D Brush holder plate for 2
049 911 257 A Bushing, end (commutator) plate
049 911 257 Bushing, middle
059 911 257 A Bushing, gear end
068 911 320 Small parts kit, (Washers, circlip, connector strap sol-start)
068 911 491 B Stud, long, end-end.
