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Date:         Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:53:08 EST
Reply-To:     ROGunter@AOL.COM
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         "Russell O. Gunter" <ROGunter@AOL.COM>
Subject:      CARB VS FUEL INJECTION
Comments: To: vanagon@vanagon.com
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

List members:

A few days ago I put a message on the list asking about the viability of putting carbs on my Vanagon. I received some good input that convinced me to stick with the FI system. Malcom Stebbins suggested I compile all the input I received and post it on the list so others may benefit from it. So here it is: ********************** Subj: Re: RIGGING FOR A CARB Date: 2/18/99 8:31:32 AM Eastern Standard Time From: Malcolm.Stebbins@MSVU.Ca (Malcolm Stebbins) Reply-to: malcolm.stebbins@MSVU.Ca To: ROGunter@aol.com

You might consider putting all of the info together in an organized way and posting a summary of the input back to the list for the archives so that the next person gains from this discussion. Malcolm *************************** Subj: Re: RIGGING FOR A CARB Date: 2/14/99 11:54:22 PM Eastern Standard Time From: cgotts@juno.com (Clifford P Gottschalk) To: ROGunter@AOL.Com

I have owned and worked on a number of VW bugs, buses, Vanagons, etc. To answer your question in a simple term - keep your fuel injection and pass on the carburetor idea. There are a couple of guyes on the list who have this, somewhat similar installation - but there are some down sides. #1, for that carb to work, you will need to install a low pressure electric pump, we're talking around a 3 to 4 psi, or a pump with a fuel pressure regulator, to bring the fuel pressure down. The vanagon fuel pump can put out up to 100 + psi, at times, and to put a fuel pressure regulator on this wouldn't be good. Keep in mind, that you also will have to plug the return line going to the fuel tank. In a fuel injection system, there is an outlet and inlet on the gas tank. The fuel system circulates and what the engine doesn't use, gets returned to the tank. The other problem with this carb setup is the height of the carb, after it is installed - it will sit higher than you think and the original engine lid will not fit on top of this setup. The next problem is air filter and warm air for the carb during cold, winter time temps. If you can get all these items solved, and don't have to worry about IM or smog tests, then this might be a consideration, but recommend keeping the fuel injection. Granted, sometimes these systems do have problems, but just understanding them will solve alot of your problems. Before running off and killing the guts of your fuel injection system, due to some malfunction of your vehicle, let me know what kind of problem or problems you might be having and perhaps you can get the bus running good again. Not sure if this helps, but good luck. Clifford Gottschalk '85 Westy auto '89 Vanagon 7 pass. stick '67 Baja Bug *************************** Subj: Re: RIGGING FOR A CARB Date: 2/15/99 12:26:23 AM Eastern Standard Time From: JordanVw To: ROGunter

the stock FI system is best...if you add carbs, be prepared for constant idle fluctuation and hard starts...if dual carbs, theyre hard to syncronise...also too big of a carb can kill your engine..

if you have no probs w/ the FI, then keep it...

chris ************************** Subj: Re: RIGGING FOR A CARB Date: 2/15/99 12:36:38 AM Eastern Standard Time From: KBatzler@email.msn.com (Karl Batzler) To: ROGunter@AOL.COM

-----Original Message----- From: Russell O. Gunter <ROGunter@AOL.COM> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM> Date: Sunday, February 14, 1999 1:00 PM Subject: RIGGING FOR A CARB

I wouldn't do that if I were you...first off, the dual port heads from a 1600 based motor are NOT the same as the Vanagon. It simply won't fit. Second, if your state passes emission laws like what we have here in California (and eventually they all will) you won't be able to pass smog. Third, you motor may not run correctly. Carbs can be a hassle. If they're not sized and jetted properly, you'll have "flat spots" in acceleration. The Digijet fuel injection is an excellent metering system...and fairly forgiving. Most of the problems that we have at this point is due to the tremendous miles we've put on these vans (more that VW AG ever anticipated). There are several diagnostic manuals on the market which give step-by-step instructions on how to check almost all of the components. Check with some of our list vendors for sources of these books. If you decide to go to carbs, you may not fix the "problem" yours having and may be due to a tired motor. Und das rat Ich dir. Karl Batzler 84 Vanagon 87 Audi 5000 S La Quinta, CA ***************************** Subj: Re: RIGGING FOR A CARB Date: 2/15/99 7:24:23 PM Eastern Standard Time From: cgotts@juno.com To: ROGunter@aol.com

There seems to be more of the earlier Vanagons, '83 to '85 around in junk yards, and so you maybe able to find these parts cheaper. Since your vehicle is an '84, you will want to stick with what you have, since the wiring is designed to work with that system. Guys who put in the bigger motors, still use the same injection system. Hope this helps. Clifford Gottschalk ******************************* Subj: Re: RIGGING FOR A CARB Date: 2/15/99 7:24:24 PM Eastern Standard Time From: cgotts@juno.com To: ROGunter@aol.com

Got your message and here's a few things to consider. You have an '84 Vanagon with an '85 Engine. So far things are going well - the '83 thru '85 are all 1.9 litre engines and the fuel injection systems are all the same. In '86, they went to a different type of fuel injection and so you will need to make sure you get the parts you need from the '83-'85 range Vanagons. It doesn't matter if it is a Westy or passenger Vanagon in those years, they have the same parts. One of the hard things is to describe what you might need, but I can sure give a good idea. First off, when you look at the engine, can you tell what is missing? If you have a Bentley manual, it does have some nice pictures of some of the components and you maybe able to tell what you need. If you would like a good description of all the items needed for the fuel injection system, I can give that to you - just let me know. I think if you were to look at the other Vanagon with all the parts, you maybe able to determine what you are missing, and then install them onto your bus. Most of the electrical parts do not need any adjustments, etc., to work properly when plugged in. I hope this helps and let me know what you would like. Clifford Gottschalk '85 Westy auto '89 Vanagon 7 pass. stick '67 Baja Bug *************************** Subj: Re: RIGGING FOR A CARB Date: 2/16/99 12:51:58 PM Eastern Standard Time From: KBatzler@email.msn.com (Karl Batzler) To: ROGunter@aol.com

Here is a web site for fuel injection references. http://www.vettenet.org/efi_ref.txt VW used AFC (a form of L jetronic) in air-cooled Vanagons from 1980-1983.5 In 1983.5 VW went to the waterboxer and needed an updated system to handle more inputs and maps, thus was born Digijet using digital signals rather than analog. This system was used in all 1.9 L waterboxers through 1985. In 1986 VW increased the displacement of the waterboxer to 2.1 L. A more advanced fuel injection system was needed to aquire more control over the engine operations. Control over timing and more maps were needed to lower emission levels and increase efficiency. If you view the differences between a Digijet and Digifant, the Digifant has no vacuum advance/retard unit. Digifant was used in Vanagons through 1991(or end of production). Digijet parts are getting difficult but not too hard to find considering the age. Digifant parts easier to find but more expensive. Both systems work equally well. In the web site that I listed above there is a Bosch Fuel Injection manual that should be able to help you more than the Bentley manual. The Bentley manual just doesn't explain how do properly diagnose fuel injection problems properly. Their prescription is to replace all the parts until it runs properly. That fine if you like to blow money, but I'm no Teilewechsler. I personally like to find problems rather than be a parts-changer. Hope this helps you out a little. Good luck and best of wishes, Karl Batzler 84 Vanagon 195,000 miles 87 Audi 5000 S 167,000 miles La Quinta, CA ************************************ And a hearty thanks to all who took the time to respond.

Russ Gunter Woodbridge, VA


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