Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:53:08 EST
Reply-To: ROGunter@AOL.COM
Sender: Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From: "Russell O. Gunter" <ROGunter@AOL.COM>
Subject: CARB VS FUEL INJECTION
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
List members:
A few days ago I put a message on the list asking about the viability of
putting carbs on my Vanagon. I received some good input that convinced me to
stick with the FI system. Malcom Stebbins suggested I compile all the input I
received and post it on the list so others may benefit from it. So here it
is:
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Subj: Re: RIGGING FOR A CARB
Date: 2/18/99 8:31:32 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: Malcolm.Stebbins@MSVU.Ca (Malcolm Stebbins)
Reply-to: malcolm.stebbins@MSVU.Ca
To: ROGunter@aol.com
You might consider putting all of the info together in an organized
way and posting a summary of the input back to the list for the
archives so that the next person gains from this discussion.
Malcolm
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Subj: Re: RIGGING FOR A CARB
Date: 2/14/99 11:54:22 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: cgotts@juno.com (Clifford P Gottschalk)
To: ROGunter@AOL.Com
I have owned and worked on a number of VW bugs, buses, Vanagons, etc. To
answer your question in a simple term - keep your fuel injection and pass
on the carburetor idea. There are a couple of guyes on the list who have
this, somewhat similar installation - but there are some down sides. #1,
for that carb to work, you will need to install a low pressure electric
pump, we're talking around a 3 to 4 psi, or a pump with a fuel pressure
regulator, to bring the fuel pressure down. The vanagon fuel pump can
put out up to 100 + psi, at times, and to put a fuel pressure regulator
on this wouldn't be good. Keep in mind, that you also will have to plug
the return line going to the fuel tank. In a fuel injection system,
there is an outlet and inlet on the gas tank. The fuel system circulates
and what the engine doesn't use, gets returned to the tank. The other
problem with this carb setup is the height of the carb, after it is
installed - it will sit higher than you think and the original engine lid
will not fit on top of this setup. The next problem is air filter and
warm air for the carb during cold, winter time temps. If you can get all
these items solved, and don't have to worry about IM or smog tests, then
this might be a consideration, but recommend keeping the fuel injection.
Granted, sometimes these systems do have problems, but just understanding
them will solve alot of your problems. Before running off and killing
the guts of your fuel injection system, due to some malfunction of your
vehicle, let me know what kind of problem or problems you might be having
and perhaps you can get the bus running good again. Not sure if this
helps, but good luck. Clifford Gottschalk
'85 Westy auto
'89 Vanagon 7 pass. stick
'67 Baja Bug
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Subj: Re: RIGGING FOR A CARB
Date: 2/15/99 12:26:23 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: JordanVw
To: ROGunter
the stock FI system is best...if you add carbs, be prepared for constant idle
fluctuation and hard starts...if dual carbs, theyre hard to syncronise...also
too big of a carb can kill your engine..
if you have no probs w/ the FI, then keep it...
chris
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Subj: Re: RIGGING FOR A CARB
Date: 2/15/99 12:36:38 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: KBatzler@email.msn.com (Karl Batzler)
To: ROGunter@AOL.COM
-----Original Message-----
From: Russell O. Gunter <ROGunter@AOL.COM>
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Date: Sunday, February 14, 1999 1:00 PM
Subject: RIGGING FOR A CARB
I wouldn't do that if I were you...first off, the dual port heads from a
1600 based motor are NOT the same as the Vanagon. It simply won't fit.
Second, if your state passes emission laws like what we have here in
California (and eventually they all will) you won't be able to pass smog.
Third, you motor may not run correctly. Carbs can be a hassle. If they're
not sized and jetted properly, you'll have "flat spots" in acceleration.
The Digijet fuel injection is an excellent metering system...and fairly
forgiving. Most of the problems that we have at this point is due to the
tremendous miles we've put on these vans (more that VW AG ever anticipated).
There are several diagnostic manuals on the market which give step-by-step
instructions on how to check almost all of the components. Check with some
of our list vendors for sources of these books.
If you decide to go to carbs, you may not fix the "problem" yours having and
may be due to a tired motor.
Und das rat Ich dir.
Karl Batzler
84 Vanagon
87 Audi 5000 S
La Quinta, CA
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Subj: Re: RIGGING FOR A CARB
Date: 2/15/99 7:24:23 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: cgotts@juno.com
To: ROGunter@aol.com
There seems to be more of the earlier Vanagons, '83 to '85 around in junk
yards, and so you maybe able to find these parts cheaper. Since your
vehicle is an '84, you will want to stick with what you have, since the
wiring is designed to work with that system. Guys who put in the bigger
motors, still use the same injection system. Hope this helps. Clifford
Gottschalk
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Subj: Re: RIGGING FOR A CARB
Date: 2/15/99 7:24:24 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: cgotts@juno.com
To: ROGunter@aol.com
Got your message and here's a few things to consider. You have an '84
Vanagon with an '85 Engine. So far things are going well - the '83 thru
'85 are all 1.9 litre engines and the fuel injection systems are all the
same. In '86, they went to a different type of fuel injection and so you
will need to make sure you get the parts you need from the '83-'85 range
Vanagons. It doesn't matter if it is a Westy or passenger Vanagon in
those years, they have the same parts. One of the hard things is to
describe what you might need, but I can sure give a good idea. First
off, when you look at the engine, can you tell what is missing? If you
have a Bentley manual, it does have some nice pictures of some of the
components and you maybe able to tell what you need. If you would like a
good description of all the items needed for the fuel injection system, I
can give that to you - just let me know. I think if you were to look at
the other Vanagon with all the parts, you maybe able to determine what
you are missing, and then install them onto your bus. Most of the
electrical parts do not need any adjustments, etc., to work properly when
plugged in. I hope this helps and let me know what you would like.
Clifford Gottschalk
'85 Westy auto
'89 Vanagon 7 pass. stick
'67 Baja Bug
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Subj: Re: RIGGING FOR A CARB
Date: 2/16/99 12:51:58 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: KBatzler@email.msn.com (Karl Batzler)
To: ROGunter@aol.com
Here is a web site for fuel injection references.
http://www.vettenet.org/efi_ref.txt
VW used AFC (a form of L jetronic) in air-cooled Vanagons from 1980-1983.5
In 1983.5 VW went to the waterboxer and needed an updated system to handle
more inputs and maps, thus was born Digijet using digital signals rather than
analog. This system was used in all 1.9 L waterboxers through 1985.
In 1986 VW increased the displacement of the waterboxer to 2.1 L. A more
advanced fuel injection system was needed to aquire more control over the
engine operations. Control over timing and more maps were needed to lower
emission levels and increase efficiency. If you view the differences between
a Digijet and Digifant, the Digifant has no vacuum advance/retard unit.
Digifant was used in Vanagons through 1991(or end of production).
Digijet parts are getting difficult but not too hard to find considering the
age.
Digifant parts easier to find but more expensive.
Both systems work equally well.
In the web site that I listed above there is a Bosch Fuel Injection manual
that should be able to help you more than the Bentley manual. The Bentley
manual just doesn't explain how do properly diagnose fuel injection problems
properly. Their prescription is to replace all the parts until it runs
properly. That fine if you like to blow money, but I'm no Teilewechsler. I
personally like to find problems rather than be a parts-changer.
Hope this helps you out a little.
Good luck and best of wishes,
Karl Batzler
84 Vanagon 195,000 miles
87 Audi 5000 S 167,000 miles
La Quinta, CA
************************************
And a hearty thanks to all who took the time to respond.
Russ Gunter
Woodbridge, VA
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