From news1.cis.umn.edu!umn.edu!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!ssd.intel.com!ichips!frx193!sjohnson Sat Mar 26 09:10:48 1994 Newsgroups: rec.autos.vw Path: news1.cis.umn.edu!umn.edu!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!ssd.intel.com!ichips!frx193!sjohnson From: sjohnson@frx193.intel.com (Steve Johnson) Subject: Re: Vanagon info needed. Message-ID: <1994Mar25.162437.16617@ichips.intel.com> Sender: news@ichips.intel.com (News Account) Organization: Intel Corporation , Folsom References: Date: Fri, 25 Mar 1994 16:24:37 GMT Lines: 199 In article Dale.James@cs.cmu.edu writes: >Greetings. > >A friend's father is looking at buying a vanagon to replace his aging, ailing >air-cooled type 2. I remember reading that certain years of the vanagons >are not terribly reliable, are VERY expensive to repair, and are generally to >be avoided. Can anyone give me a breakdown of what to expect from >particular models/engines? > >Many thanks, >--Dale > I think the ones from '84 - 87 had head warping problems, but I would imagine a lot of them have been fixed by VW by now. I'm also including a summary of busses and there +/- by Dan Eldred: From: eldred@rrunner.jpl.nasa.gov (Dan Eldred) Newsgroups: rec.autos.vw Subject: VW Van Summary (long) Date: 3 Dec 92 00:58:08 GMT Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory I occasionally get requests for recommendations for VW vans and so I have collected the following summary. Please email me if you see any inaccuracies or think something should be added. Recommendations for VW Vans Dan Eldred eldred@rrunner.jpl.nasa.gov 1. Early Type II's. These are collector items and hence draw a hefty sum in good condition. I can't imagine anyone who would want one as a daily commuter, as they used a swing axle suspension (i.e. they tip over real easily) and had a 1300 cc engine which was very prone to exhaust valve failure and was woefully underpowered. Anyone from California over age 35 remembers the scores of early VW vans pulled off the side of the road on the grade up to Mammoth ski area. On the other hand, if you enjoy scouring swap meets for parts and driving without a gas gauge (you pulled a lever to switch to the reserve tank), maybe this is the car for you. The front windshields (2 of them) hinged upward in the Safari version. I think they came with a pull cord to start the engine in case the battery died. 2. '68-'70 Type II's. These were pretty good, the major problems being lack of power (1600 single port engine) and lousy brakes (4 wheel drums, no power assist). The engine could be switched to a dual port engine easily, and I would recommend it for more power. Engine parts are very inexpensive and abundant, as they are identical to those of the Bug. You can buy a brand new engine made in Brazil for less than $1000. The rear suspension is independent using 4 CV joints, and is very good. Handling in cross winds is, well, exciting, and the engine noise is very loud. Removal of the engine in these cars is the easiest of any car ever made. These cars will be nearly 25 years old shortly, so other parts are getting harder and more expensive to come by (but they are abundant in the junkyards). When buying one, be sure to get one which is rust free-- search in all four wheel wells, under the side panels, and under the front floor mats. The steering gear tends to develop play and then leaks out the oil, so look for this also. You will probably want to get more power from the engine by either enlarginging it (bore and/or stroke) and/or increasing compression somewhat (don't exceed about 8.3:1), but if you do so it probably won't last more than about 80,000 miles before you have to pull it for something or another. You will see many on the road with oil coolers, but I don't think they're necessary and they add a potential failure spot. Don't expect to get much heat from the heater, and note that the heater boxes have a different linkage than those from a Bug (though later, aftermarket ones will fit both Bugs and Busses). Make sure the sliding door works because if it doesn't you'll spend forever trying to get it to work right. 3. '71 Type II's. This is the best year for the bus with the old upright (Bug) engine. The stock engine is dual port, for nearly marginal power (you will probably still want to get more from it), and you also get front disk brakes along with power assist, though the disk brake pads did tend to wear out fairly rapidly. The distributer, though complicated (for smog control), seems to have a very good combination of centrifugal and vacuum advance (with vacuum retard at idle, which seems harmless enough). I highly recommend replacing the mechanical points with one of the aftermarket breakerless ignition systems, or, alternatively, adapting a distributer with a Hall effect sensor from a Vanagon (but I haven't looked at the advance curves of these). The 34-pict-3 carburettor tended to have a flat spot during acceleration. The '68-'71's are very well made and they are very simple. I had a '71 from '76 through '89, and finally sold it at 180,000 miles (it was dying from rust). 4. '72-'74 Type II's. The body style changed subtly with the introduction of the 411 engine. The tail lights got bigger and square, and the rear apron behind the engine was welded in place instead of being bolted in place (which makes engine removal far more difficult--you have to jack up the car to clear the engine). The front disk brakes were redesigned so that they lasted longer. Also the steering box changed, so I assume they were less prone to wear. Access to the engine was improved somewhat by adding an access hatch in the car. The '72's had the same bumpers as the earlier ones but sometime later the bumpers changed from rounded cross section to a more square cross section. Otherwise the sheet metal is pretty similar to the earlier Busses. The ride is the same as earlier Busses (i.e. white knuckles in a cross wind), but the interior noise is much reduced. The seats got head rests, but the interior quality got a bit worse, with thinner material used. The engine, on the other hand, is radically different. I feel it is a much stronger engine, and it came in 1700, 1800, and 2000 cc displacements (among others, in different cars), so it provided enough power to move the Bus in its stock configuration (though barely). It has other advantages over the old upright engine as well, including: stretchy head studs (most rebuild kits for upright engines use these now as well), a proper oil filter, and the pushrod tubes are less prone to leakage and can be replaced without engine disassembly (in the upright engine, you had to use aftermarket telescoping tubes), and somewhat better heater boxes (though heat is still inadequate for winter). On the down side, these years used a dual Solex carburetor arrangement which was difficult to get and keep adjusted properly, and the engines were very prone to burning exhaust valves until finally all Bus engines were equipped with sodium cooled valves (which can be retrofitted). If you buy a high mileage Bus of this era, it probably has been retrofitted. Also doing engine work on these engines is at least three times as expensive as on an upright engine (I kid you not), and this is a major disadvantage. 5. '75-'77.5 Type II's. As above, but electronic fuel injection was substituted for the twin Solexes. I don't have any first hand knowledge, but I have heard many tales of people spending many hundreds of dollars trying to get the fuel injection to work right (usually by ultimately replacing every part until the problem disappears). I believe that the mass air meter used a resistive contact as an angle sensor, and this would wear out over time. At least the fuel pump is the same as that used in fuel injected Bugs, so they are readily available. Somewhere here the engine grew to 2.0 liters. 6. '77.5-'79 Type II's. As above, but hydraulic lifters were added. This eliminates the pain-in-the-ass job of occasionally adjusting the valves, which is more difficult in the 411 engine than in the upright engine. You also have less oil leaking out since the valve covers stay on. The hydraulic lifters can also be replaced fairly easily with the engine still in the car (which is a good thing since they occasionally go bad--figure on about 100,000 miles for them, depending on how clean you keep the oil). By the way, you can retrofit older 411 engines with the hydraulic lifters as well, but you should replace the camshaft at the same time or the valve timing won't be quite up to snuff. I believe that many of the bugs in the fuel injection were worked out during this time period. 7. '80-'83 Vanagon. The engine is based on the previous Type II engine but uses slightly different heads. I have had a '80 since '88, and it now has 155,000 miles on the original engine. The fuel injection seems to be more reliable, based on anecdotal evidence and my experience. Heat is still inadequate, but the power is sort of ok. The biggest changes are in the body. You get a lot more interior room, even though the outside didn't seem to grow. The windshield is much bigger for a better view. The car finally handles acceptably in a cross-wind, thanks to the wishbone front suspension which replaced the trailing arm suspension of the earlier Busses. And it is much quieter, though wind and road noise make it still much noisier than a typical passenger car. On the down side, interior quality seems to be going downhill, and lots of little plasticy things tend to break. There are also lots of little quirky irritations, such as having the brake fluid resevoir on top of the instrument console so you spill the fluid all over the instruments when you try to refill it, or having to open the hinged license plate to add oil (and always getting your hands dirty in the process). The air circulation system is terribly and unnecessarily complicated for the simple functions it performs, and I was very disappointed to find that the electric fan only circulated fresh air and that the heated air was still coupled to the engine fan (and that the heat was still inadequate in the winter). The power from the 2.0 liter engine is the same as in the later Busses but the Vanagon is bigger, less aerodynamic, and heavier, so the acceleration and mileage is worse (expect about 19-20 on the highway). Some of these Vanagons were equipped with a Rabbit-type diesel engine shoehorned into the engine compartment. My only comment regarding these is that if you were dumb enough to buy one, you would get what you deserve (flame on). All in all, the Vanagon is a good van, but it lacks the simplicity, character and charm of the older style Busses, and is very expensive to repair. One more tidbit--the camper version, while very nicely equipped, won't fit in parking garages. This applies to the Type II vans as well. 8. '84-'91 Vanagon. The engine was switched to the "Wasserboxer" or water-cooled pancake engine. The first several years of this engine were extremely trouble prone, with overheating, water pump failures, and coolant leaks (from the head gaskets) occurring frequently. I have also heard that the cylinder heads tend to crack, and that VW has been doing repairs for free under a "secret warranty" program. Keep in mind that the radiator is separated from the engine by about 15 feet of car, to appreciate how cooling problems might come about. It was also a limited production engine, unique to the Vanagon. In practical terms, this means that the engine is astronomically expensive to work on (mark my words). One poster claimed that it cost $800 just to purchase the radiator hoses, and that a set of gaskets cost $250!!! Otherwise the car seems to be pretty good, and it has more power than the air cooled version (though it doesn't get any better mileage). The interior quality and layout seems to have gotten much better, and in the camper version is unbeatable. - Dan Eldred eldred@rrunner.jpl.nasa.gov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven Johnson sjohnson@pcocd2.intel.com '91 VW Camper GL, '86 Nissan Sentra Previously owned: '68 bug, '70 squareback, '74 Camper -- sjohnson@pcocd2.intel.com