Date:         Thu, 18 May 2000 10:39:51 -0400
Reply-To:     Jon Whittington <jkstraw@MAGMA.CA>
Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
From:         Jon Whittington <jkstraw@MAGMA.CA>
Subject:      Ottawa - '85 Vanagon - Intermittent starting problems
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;

Good day to all!

The following is a plea for help :)  I have been struggling with an
intermittent starting problem for the past 6-8 months now and have come
to the this list in the hopes of getting some feedback from members that
have a greater understanding of the Vanagon's 'inner workings'.

1985 Vanagon/Westfalia
-Automatic
-Approx. 230 000 km

Problems to rule out:
1.  Starter motor (Had a rebuilt starter tested and installed last week)

2.  Relay located on underside of van (I don't know if there are a
multiple number of these, but I have had wires and the rely itself
replaced).
3.  Battery has been tested over and over and over...no problems here!
4.  Alternator tested...no problems here

The history:

Note:  The problem has remained the same, simply, the van will not
start.  It does not attempt to turn the engine over.  There is
relatively no noise when attempting to start (not even a clicking
sound).  In fact the only noise that can be heard is a slight "sizzling"
sound (it actually sounds like an electrical current trying to bridge
some type of connection).  I have been unable to isolate where this
sound is coming from....although it is only audible if you are lurking
around the engine.

   * It seems that this problem starting occurring during the winter
     months.  The problem seemed pretty reliable.  As soon as the
     temperature got to -10 degrees Celsius the van just wouldn't
     start.  Once the temp. got above -10 the van seemed to start
     reliably.  This seemed to make sense, given that once I took it
     into the shop to get looked at it starting without a problem -
     seemingly because it was in the shop and was able therefore able to
     warm up.
   * With the spring arriving the van was starting without incident for
     a good 2 months.  Then I took it for a short drive (300 km) in the
     rain over the easter weekend.  I camped out for 2 days and as I
     attempted to leave I was surprised to find that the van would not
     start.  I tried a bunch of things....1)  Letting it sit for a few
     hours to dry out, even though it had been sitting dry for 2
     days!...2)  I tried to roll it while in neutral (NOTE:  It would
     not move?? It acted as if it were in gear?))  Finally, thinking
     back to a couple years earlier I remember that a relay had caused a
     problem with the starting of the van so I had it towed to a shop
     and they replaced the relay.  As soon as this was replaced it
     started!!  However, it stayed at the shop another 3-4 days while
     the mechanic worked on the muffler.  Once he had finished he took
     in down from the lift and tried to start it....guess what?  I
     wouldn't start!  The one bonus to this unfortunate turn of events
     is that it seems to have eliminated the following potential causes:
   * The corroded relay/wires
   * dampness (it was in the shop for over a week)
   * Cold weather (this occurred in spring +12 - +20 degrees Celsius)
   * Battery (was fully charged)

     At this point I was in luck!  I had a mechanic that was
     experiencing my intermittent electrical/starting problem and could
     therefore trace it!  He found that as my starter heated up I was
     loosing voltage across the terminal ends.  He removed the starter
     and was able to reliably repeat this problem.  So I had the starter
     replaced.  He tested the rebuilt starter and there was no further
     loss of voltage...problem fixed?
   * Well no!  I went to Toronto last weekend, it was a damp drive and I
     pulled into a gas station to get a map, the van was off for a grand
     total of about 5 minutes.  When I attempted to start it up, I was
     shocked to have the exact same problem occurring.  No clicking, no
     attempt to turn over, just a slight 'hissing/sizzling" sound coming
     from the general engine area.  I waited for about 2 hours for a
     friend to come and rescue me <grin>, all the while attempting to
     start it.  When finally I had a tow truck on the way I tried to put
     it into neutral and roll it a few feet (remembering that over
     easter it would NOT roll while in neutral).  Well strange enough,
     it did roll!!  I let it roll back about 2 feet and then put it back
     into park.  Well wouldn't you know it??  It started!!
   * Okay so now I'm thinking that I've got it all figured out.  In fact
     it wouldn't start for me only a couple days later in my driveway.
     A quick roll back 2 feet and it started!?  Then came last night.  A
     completely dry night, I had only been driving for 20 mins or so.  I
     parked the van and left it for 20-30mins.  I came back out and it
     would not start (again the exact same problem!?).  I was confident
     that once I rolled it back a few feet and put it in park again that
     it would start.  Well....colour me surprised!!  After about 20 feet
     at 2 feet increments I had a dead VW on my hands!!  So I ended up
     having to leave it there for 3 hours or so.  I came back later that
     night and tried to start the van.  It wouldn't start on the first 5
     tries, so I rolled it back the last 2 feet of driveway <grin> and
     it started......and this point all I can say is, "WHY??".
   * Again this morning I had to roll it back a couple feet to get it
     started.  But to be completely honest I really don't know if this
     rolling thing is what is helping me??  I mean it didn't work last
     night until I let it sit for 3 hours?

My questions to the list:

   * Could this be a problem associated with the mechanism that ensures
     that the VW is in park or neutral before letting the engine turn
     over?  (What is that mechanism??)
   * Has anyone ever had a similar problem?  If so how did you fix it?
     Don't say you sold it....I can't live without my baby!! :(
   * Would anyone be willing to contact me one on one and grill me with
     questions to help me define the problem further (my mechanical
     knowledge is VERY low, so I don't even know what I am
     asking/refering to a lot of the time!)

That's all I have.  I hope somebody out there may be able to help me
out.  I apologize for the long winded e-mail but unless I am very
detailed people seem to think it some "normal" problem a brush it  off.

I have spent $2000.00 (granted canadian funds :) trying to fix this and
have seen three mechanics.  None have been able to fix the problem.

Thanks in advance!

Jon Whittington
jkstraw@magma.ca



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